[arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals

Thu Apr 17 20:53:56 EDT 2025

Ok, natural persons can be RIPE members in their own right, I guess I was
wrong, but you pay €1,800 for membership.  Where as with ARIN you start at
$250, even with potential state registration fees for a sole
proprietorship, you probably still come out well ahead.

On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:43 David Farmer <farmer at umn.edu> wrote:

> Out of curiosity can you point me to the agreement on RIPE’s web site.
>
> Thanks
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:38 Ryan Hamel <ryan at rkhtech.org> wrote:
>
>> David,
>>
>> I signed an agreement with RIPE NCC, have an account in their portal, and
>> had an ASN + IPv6 assignment...
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Ryan Hamel
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of David Farmer
>> via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2025 6:35:37 PM
>> *To:* John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
>> *Cc:* Preston Ursini <preston at thefirehorn.com>; arin-ppml at arin.net <
>> arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>>
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take
>> care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>
>> First, my understanding is that individuals don't get resources from RIPE
>> either; Member Organizations do. You, as an individual, get resources from
>> an LIR that is a RIPE Member, and the LIR gets the resources from RIPE,
>> maintains the relationship with RIPE, and assigns them to you. As an
>> individual, your relationship is with the LIR, not RIPE, unless I'm
>> completely misunderstanding RIPE's policies and business practices.
>>
>> A similar arrangement could be facilitated by an LIR (also known as an
>> ISP) that is an ARIN Member Organization. That isn't as common a practice
>> here in the ARIN Region. ARIN has a lower barrier to entry and deals
>> directly with end-user organizations, but not end-users as individuals.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 6:51 PM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
>>
>> Preston -
>>
>> I don’t think any of the present discussion has been predicated on fraud
>> concerns.
>>
>> (Note that ARIN currently has some extensive anti-fraud practices that
>> include various forms of government issued ID presentation and
>> verification.)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Preston Ursini <preston at thefirehorn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Would I be correct in that there hasn’t been an actually policy proposal
>> submitted for this?
>>
>> I believe that whether or not this new policy were to be considered, that
>> a copy of a government issued identification document be submitted to the
>> person signing the Registration Services Agreement whenever an OrgID is
>> issued.  This can help immensely in tracking down fraud which seems to be a
>> pillar concern.
>>
>> For simplicity sake, I’d also say in any such policy allowing an
>> Individual to obtain numbering assets simply be issued an OrgID just as
>> sole proprietors are as to minimize disruption to ARIN operations in
>> implementing this policy.
>>
>>
>> Preston Ursini
>>
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 6:28 PM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
>>
>> Preston -
>>
>> That’s a reasonable question (“why an individual cannot be accepted as
>> they are generally the same legal entity…”)
>>
>> You’re right that a sole proprietorship is legally tied to the individual
>> behind it, but that doesn’t make it the same as issuing resources to
>> individuals.  At the time of ARIN’s formation (and for a suibstantial
>> period before), number resources were issued to organizations. The old
>> netnumber.txt request forms made that clear, asking for “the organization
>> responsible for establishing the network” along with a postal address. That
>> model is what ARIN inherited when it was formed in 1997, and it’s what we
>> continue to operate under.
>>
>> While it’s true in theory that ARIN could adopt a model where it directly
>> serves individuals, this would represent a significant departure from the
>> registry model we inherited and have operated under for decades. Even
>> though individuals and organizations can both be “legal entities,” that
>> does not mean they are treated identically under law. For example,
>> companies that predominantly focus on serving businesses (often referred to
>> as B2B) are often subject to different laws, regulations, and tax policy
>> than those that hold themselves out to serve individuals. Thus, shifting to
>> a model that openly includes individuals could have significant unintended
>> implications for ARIN.
>>
>> That doesn’t mean it can’t be done, but it would be important to
>> understand the problem that such a change would solve. ARIN accepts
>> incorporated entities, DBAs, sole proprietors, etc.—because we know
>> networks are run by all kinds of operators. But in every case, we’re still
>> issuing to an organization, however minimal the structure might be.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 2:09 PM, Preston Ursini via ARIN-PPML <
>> arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>>
>> If a sole proprietorship is accepted, I am confused as to why an
>> Individual cannot be accepted as they are generally the same legal entity
>> unless it is an individual?
>>
>> There are over 20,000 political subdivisions within the United States
>> when you count cities, counties, townships, etc., all with their own rules
>> when it comes to business licenses and conducting business, trying to tie
>> every sole proprietorship down with a business license when one may not be
>> required in many of these jurisdictions seems strange at best.
>>
>> In general the law sees Corporations and Individuals as all in the same,
>> so I’m a little confused as to why ARIN would be ok with doing business
>> with a sole proprietor but not an "individual"?
>>
>> If the issue is fraud prevention, it seems like a better approach would
>> be tying all accounts regardless of whether it is a business/individual,
>> with a government issued identification document; the trend with having an
>> officer of a company sign an RSA seems to be a step in the direction in
>> tying real people to accounts; assuming the goal here is to ensure
>> accountability for resource allocation?
>>
>>
>>
>> Preston Ursini
>>
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:21 AM, arin-ppml-request at arin.net wrote:
>>
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals
>>    (jordi.palet at consulintel.es)
>> 2. Re: distributing resources for individuals (John Curran)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 09:00:26 +0200
>> From: "jordi.palet at consulintel.es" <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
>> To: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>> Message-ID: <9175FF4A-94C3-4021-96CE-44AC5D1DA382 at consulintel.es>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> A couple of questions on this:
>>
>> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive?
>> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division
>> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN?
>>
>> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that
>> ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but
>> also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present
>> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity),
>> is close to ?zero"?
>>
>> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a
>> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive
>> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership
>> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead
>> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course
>> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already
>> set in the policies for each type of resource)?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>>
>> @jordipalet
>>
>>
>> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escribi?:
>>
>> Ryan -
>>
>> Indeed.  As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in
>> this discussion,  ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do
>> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number
>> resources.  Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works,
>> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further
>> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be
>> solved.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>
>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <ryan at rkhtech.org> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under
>> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and
>> the legal team.
>>
>> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several
>> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's
>> agreements.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Ryan Hamel
>> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of David Farmer
>> via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM
>> To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
>> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>>
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
>> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>
>> John,
>>
>> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if
>> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to
>> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship.
>>
>> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State,
>> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also
>> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the
>> owner's name.
>>
>> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an
>> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude
>> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business
>> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't
>> neatly align with ARIN procedures.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net <mailto:
>> jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net <mailto:
>> pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Originally
>> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by
>> this.
>> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with
>> the Secretary of State.
>> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with
>> Secretary of State database.
>> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that
>> wasn't good enough.
>>
>>
>> Paul -
>>
>> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted
>> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to
>> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013?  There is a
>> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all
>> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was
>> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand
>> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or
>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of
>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized
>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 12:21:30 +0000
>> From: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
>> To: "jordi.palet at consulintel.es" <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
>> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>> Message-ID: <19584E59-969A-4EC3-BB29-6500464AF949 at arin.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Jordi -
>>
>> The representation you seek from ARIN regarding government procedures
>> across the the entire region is not possible to make ? and as you note, it
>> would be meaningless the very next day because such laws and regulations
>> are outside of ARIN?s control and subject to change.  Note that this is the
>> case regardless of whether speaking of networks run by organizations or
>> individuals ? the legal requirements on networks in any given portion of
>> the ARIN region are not determined by ARIN.
>>
>> What we can say is that our customers want us to be reasonably flexible
>> in our processes to the extent possible, just as we are with respect to
>> confirming whether organizations requesting resources operate within the
>> ARIN region.  We?ve evolved our processes over time to make be more
>> straightforward, and this includes handling entities that are incorporated,
>> those using DBA registrations, sole proprietorships, etc.
>>
>> Your original query noted that ? In LACNIC we are having a discussion
>> because the policy manual only allows to distribute resources to
>> ?organizations legally registered? ? ? To be clear, ARIN is effectively the
>> same, but we are quite flexible in recognition of how our network customers
>> may go about their legal registration.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2025, at 3:00?AM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML <
>> arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> A couple of questions on this:
>>
>> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive?
>> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division
>> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN?
>>
>> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that
>> ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but
>> also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present
>> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity),
>> is close to ?zero"?
>>
>> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a
>> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive
>> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership
>> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead
>> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course
>> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already
>> set in the policies for each type of resource)?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>>
>> @jordipalet
>>
>>
>> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escribi?:
>>
>> Ryan -
>>
>> Indeed.  As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in
>> this discussion,  ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do
>> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number
>> resources.  Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works,
>> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further
>> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be
>> solved.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>
>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <ryan at rkhtech.org> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under
>> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and
>> the legal team.
>>
>> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several
>> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's
>> agreements.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Ryan Hamel
>> ________________________________
>> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of David Farmer
>> via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM
>> To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
>> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>>
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
>> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>
>> John,
>>
>> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if
>> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to
>> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship.
>>
>> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State,
>> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also
>> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the
>> owner's name.
>>
>> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an
>> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude
>> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business
>> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't
>> neatly align with ARIN procedures.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:
>> jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:
>> pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Originally
>> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by
>> this.
>> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with
>> the Secretary of State.
>> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with
>> Secretary of State database.
>> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that
>> wasn't good enough.
>>
>> Paul -
>>
>> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted
>> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to
>> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013?  There is a
>> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all
>> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was
>> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand
>> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or
>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of
>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized
>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or
>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal
>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
>> communication and delete it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ===============================================
>> David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
>> Networking & Telecommunication Services
>> Office of Information Technology
>> University of Minnesota
>> 2218 University Ave SE
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>       Phone: 612-626-0815
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>> ===============================================
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>
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