[arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals

Thu Apr 17 20:43:56 EDT 2025

Out of curiosity can you point me to the agreement on RIPE’s web site.

Thanks

On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:38 Ryan Hamel <ryan at rkhtech.org> wrote:

> David,
>
> I signed an agreement with RIPE NCC, have an account in their portal, and
> had an ASN + IPv6 assignment...
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Ryan Hamel
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of David Farmer
> via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 17, 2025 6:35:37 PM
> *To:* John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
> *Cc:* Preston Ursini <preston at thefirehorn.com>; arin-ppml at arin.net <
> arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> First, my understanding is that individuals don't get resources from RIPE
> either; Member Organizations do. You, as an individual, get resources from
> an LIR that is a RIPE Member, and the LIR gets the resources from RIPE,
> maintains the relationship with RIPE, and assigns them to you. As an
> individual, your relationship is with the LIR, not RIPE, unless I'm
> completely misunderstanding RIPE's policies and business practices.
>
> A similar arrangement could be facilitated by an LIR (also known as an
> ISP) that is an ARIN Member Organization. That isn't as common a practice
> here in the ARIN Region. ARIN has a lower barrier to entry and deals
> directly with end-user organizations, but not end-users as individuals.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 6:51 PM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
>
> Preston -
>
> I don’t think any of the present discussion has been predicated on fraud
> concerns.
>
> (Note that ARIN currently has some extensive anti-fraud practices that
> include various forms of government issued ID presentation and
> verification.)
>
> Thanks,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Preston Ursini <preston at thefirehorn.com>
> wrote:
>
> Would I be correct in that there hasn’t been an actually policy proposal
> submitted for this?
>
> I believe that whether or not this new policy were to be considered, that
> a copy of a government issued identification document be submitted to the
> person signing the Registration Services Agreement whenever an OrgID is
> issued.  This can help immensely in tracking down fraud which seems to be a
> pillar concern.
>
> For simplicity sake, I’d also say in any such policy allowing an
> Individual to obtain numbering assets simply be issued an OrgID just as
> sole proprietors are as to minimize disruption to ARIN operations in
> implementing this policy.
>
>
> Preston Ursini
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2025, at 6:28 PM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
>
> Preston -
>
> That’s a reasonable question (“why an individual cannot be accepted as
> they are generally the same legal entity…”)
>
> You’re right that a sole proprietorship is legally tied to the individual
> behind it, but that doesn’t make it the same as issuing resources to
> individuals.  At the time of ARIN’s formation (and for a suibstantial
> period before), number resources were issued to organizations. The old
> netnumber.txt request forms made that clear, asking for “the organization
> responsible for establishing the network” along with a postal address. That
> model is what ARIN inherited when it was formed in 1997, and it’s what we
> continue to operate under.
>
> While it’s true in theory that ARIN could adopt a model where it directly
> serves individuals, this would represent a significant departure from the
> registry model we inherited and have operated under for decades. Even
> though individuals and organizations can both be “legal entities,” that
> does not mean they are treated identically under law. For example,
> companies that predominantly focus on serving businesses (often referred to
> as B2B) are often subject to different laws, regulations, and tax policy
> than those that hold themselves out to serve individuals. Thus, shifting to
> a model that openly includes individuals could have significant unintended
> implications for ARIN.
>
> That doesn’t mean it can’t be done, but it would be important to
> understand the problem that such a change would solve. ARIN accepts
> incorporated entities, DBAs, sole proprietors, etc.—because we know
> networks are run by all kinds of operators. But in every case, we’re still
> issuing to an organization, however minimal the structure might be.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
> On Apr 17, 2025, at 2:09 PM, Preston Ursini via ARIN-PPML <
> arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>
> If a sole proprietorship is accepted, I am confused as to why an
> Individual cannot be accepted as they are generally the same legal entity
> unless it is an individual?
>
> There are over 20,000 political subdivisions within the United States when
> you count cities, counties, townships, etc., all with their own rules when
> it comes to business licenses and conducting business, trying to tie every
> sole proprietorship down with a business license when one may not be
> required in many of these jurisdictions seems strange at best.
>
> In general the law sees Corporations and Individuals as all in the same,
> so I’m a little confused as to why ARIN would be ok with doing business
> with a sole proprietor but not an "individual"?
>
> If the issue is fraud prevention, it seems like a better approach would be
> tying all accounts regardless of whether it is a business/individual, with
> a government issued identification document; the trend with having an
> officer of a company sign an RSA seems to be a step in the direction in
> tying real people to accounts; assuming the goal here is to ensure
> accountability for resource allocation?
>
>
>
> Preston Ursini
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:21 AM, arin-ppml-request at arin.net wrote:
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals
>    (jordi.palet at consulintel.es)
> 2. Re: distributing resources for individuals (John Curran)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 09:00:26 +0200
> From: "jordi.palet at consulintel.es" <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
> To: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
> Message-ID: <9175FF4A-94C3-4021-96CE-44AC5D1DA382 at consulintel.es>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi John,
>
> A couple of questions on this:
>
> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive?
> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division
> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN?
>
> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that
> ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but
> also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present
> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity),
> is close to ?zero"?
>
> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a
> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive
> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership
> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead
> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course
> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already
> set in the policies for each type of resource)?
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escribi?:
>
> Ryan -
>
> Indeed.  As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in
> this discussion,  ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do
> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number
> resources.  Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works,
> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further
> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be
> solved.
>
> Thanks,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <ryan at rkhtech.org> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under
> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and
> the legal team.
>
> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several
> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's
> agreements.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Ryan Hamel
> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of David Farmer
> via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM
> To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> John,
>
> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if
> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to
> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship.
>
> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State,
> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also
> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the
> owner's name.
>
> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an
> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude
> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business
> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't
> neatly align with ARIN procedures.
>
> Thanks
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net <mailto:
> jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net <mailto:
> pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>
> Originally
> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by
> this.
> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with
> the Secretary of State.
> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with Secretary
> of State database.
> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that
> wasn't good enough.
>
>
> Paul -
>
> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted
> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to
> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013?  There is a
> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all
> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was
> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand
> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so.
>
> Thanks,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-PPML
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or
> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of
> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 12:21:30 +0000
> From: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
> To: "jordi.palet at consulintel.es" <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
> Message-ID: <19584E59-969A-4EC3-BB29-6500464AF949 at arin.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Jordi -
>
> The representation you seek from ARIN regarding government procedures
> across the the entire region is not possible to make ? and as you note, it
> would be meaningless the very next day because such laws and regulations
> are outside of ARIN?s control and subject to change.  Note that this is the
> case regardless of whether speaking of networks run by organizations or
> individuals ? the legal requirements on networks in any given portion of
> the ARIN region are not determined by ARIN.
>
> What we can say is that our customers want us to be reasonably flexible in
> our processes to the extent possible, just as we are with respect to
> confirming whether organizations requesting resources operate within the
> ARIN region.  We?ve evolved our processes over time to make be more
> straightforward, and this includes handling entities that are incorporated,
> those using DBA registrations, sole proprietorships, etc.
>
> Your original query noted that ? In LACNIC we are having a discussion
> because the policy manual only allows to distribute resources to
> ?organizations legally registered? ? ? To be clear, ARIN is effectively the
> same, but we are quite flexible in recognition of how our network customers
> may go about their legal registration.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
> On Apr 17, 2025, at 3:00?AM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML <
> arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> A couple of questions on this:
>
> 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive?
> procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division
> in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN?
>
> 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that
> ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but
> also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present
> quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity),
> is close to ?zero"?
>
> 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a
> sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive
> or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership
> documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead
> of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course
> a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already
> set in the policies for each type of resource)?
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
> El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escribi?:
>
> Ryan -
>
> Indeed.  As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in
> this discussion,  ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do
> have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number
> resources.  Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works,
> incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further
> discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be
> solved.
>
> Thanks,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <ryan at rkhtech.org> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under
> my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and
> the legal team.
>
> A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several
> states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's
> agreements.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Ryan Hamel
> ________________________________
> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of David Farmer
> via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM
> To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> John,
>
> The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if
> you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to
> register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship.
>
> So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State,
> effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also
> requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the
> owner's name.
>
> Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an
> organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude
> should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business
> and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't
> neatly align with ARIN procedures.
>
> Thanks
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:
> jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:
> pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
>
> Originally
> 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by
> this.
> In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with
> the Secretary of State.
> ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with Secretary
> of State database.
> We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that
> wasn't good enough.
>
> Paul -
>
> To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted
> from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to
> register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013?  There is a
> 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all
> appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was
> some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand
> the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so.
>
> Thanks,
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-PPML
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or
> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of
> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or
> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal
> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
> communication and delete it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-PPML
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>
>
>
> --
> ===============================================
> David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
> Networking & Telecommunication Services
> Office of Information Technology
> University of Minnesota
> 2218 University Ave SE
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g>
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