[arin-ppml] Policy Experience Report Working Group Leasing Question

Mon May 8 22:07:32 EDT 2023

It’s easy you you and me to say someone else would be better off buying a
/24 at ~$10K on the transfer market, than leasing it from their transit
provider or a third party. I tend to agree with that, but it’s not my
money, so maybe my opinion doesn’t matter.

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 20:36 Michael B. Williams <
Michael.Williams at glexia.com> wrote:

> I don’t believe third party leasing at a /24 or higher is in anyone’s best
> interest expect IP brokers and those obtaining IP resources with the intent
> to resell.
>
> I’m not against portability but if a participant wants portability they’d
> need a /24 or higher. Aquire their own IP resources…
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 21:30 David Farmer via ARIN-PPML <
> arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>
>> At one time you couldn’t take your Telephone number with you provider to
>> provider, those rules were changed, because it was in the telephone
>> consumer’s interest.
>>
>> Can you consider that maybe it is in the Internet consumer’s to make some
>> changes to the IPv4 address leasing rules at this time. I’m not suggesting
>> full Internet address portability, but allowing 3rd party leasing
>> especially at the /24 level could be beneficial to the Internet consumer’s
>> interest, at least in my opinion.
>>
>> There are bigger picture issues at play in this conversation, should they
>> win the day, maybe not, but dismissing them out of had isn’t a good idea
>> either.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 20:06 Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/05/2023 21:54, David Farmer wrote:
>>>
>>> <clip>
>>>
>>> In my opinion, your very technical definition of leasing is an
>>> anachronism. The reality is if you want/need more than a /29 of addresses,
>>> and you don’t already have them, you will need to pay for them one way or
>>> another on top of your transit bandwidth, through the transfer market,
>>> leasing them from your transit provider, or leasing them from a 3rd party,
>>> this is today’s reality, like it or not.
>>>
>>> Getting it from the transit provider who is building Internet
>>> infrastructure and providing connectivity is fine, has always been. Getting
>>> from a 3rd party who is just speculating around IP space and not interested
>>> in building any Internet stuff not. It does not matter what reality may be
>>> happening in some places, if that is wrong it does not make it look right
>>> because some are doing and find that a normal thing because it fits to
>>> their commercial needs. Is Congress willing to change law to make crimes in
>>> the top of list not to be a crime anymore because that is happening more
>>> often?
>>> You are only authorized to trade with what you bought and own.
>>>
>>> Fernando
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 18:23 Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Willian. A customer who holds an ASN and is a ARIN member should not
>>>> get IP space to announce with their own ASN from the ISP provider but
>>>> directly with ARIN in all cases.
>>>> Legal risk will always exists and it is not because it exists it should
>>>> not be taken, just need to evaluated and worked.
>>>>
>>>> There has been a proposal presented not much a while ago that intended
>>>> to get that separation better worded and which was still in the process of
>>>> getting feedback and improvements, but AC quickly dismissed it in a
>>>> questionable way despite there has been people interested in discussing and
>>>> improving it. A pity. There has not even been a chance to get a improved
>>>> text in that sense.
>>>> And honestly there will always be some way someone will find out to try
>>>> to circumvent rules and I don't think there will be a perfect text, but a
>>>> reasonable one that can cover most scenarios can play a important role in
>>>> reducing scenarios where resources can be misused.
>>>> On 08/05/2023 19:45, William Herrin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 3:26 PM Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Another thing which many here are targeting about IP leasing
>>>> in the sense of renting, speculation made by those who don't
>>>> build or offer any Internet infrastructure and services. In other
>>>> words someone holding IP space and not using it to build any
>>>> Internet infrastructure and services.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Fernando,
>>>>
>>>> You may be missing my point. How do you differentiate in policy between:
>>>>
>>>> Scenario 1: ISP A provides a T1 and a /24. ISP B provides a gigabit
>>>> ethernet. Customer routes with BGP on both but depreferences ISP A so
>>>> it never shows up in the Internet BGP tables.
>>>>
>>>> Scenario 2: Pretextual ISP C (the defacto address leaser) provides a
>>>> /24 and a VPN (or virtual machine other nil-cost transit consuming
>>>> mechanism). ISP D provides a gigabit ethernet. Customer routes with
>>>> BGP on both but depreferences ISP C so it never shows up in the
>>>> Internet BGP tables.
>>>>
>>>> Scenario 1 is considered reasonable and has been for the entire
>>>> lifetime of the RIRs.
>>>>
>>>> Scenario 2 is the objectionable address leasing arrangement with a
>>>> tiny bit of fluff to bring it into technical compliance with ARIN
>>>> policy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can't tell ARIN to just exercise their judgement whether something
>>>> is defacto leasing. That creates legal risk to the organization where
>>>> they can't effectively act against the people they "know" to be
>>>> leasers.
>>>>
>>>> You have to write a policy that outright breaks scenario #2 without
>>>> harming scenario #1.That's the utilization count approach. ISP A in
>>>> scenario #1 is not particularly bothered if ARIN gets a bee in their
>>>> bonnet about counting that /24 utilized. So they have to be at 81%
>>>> instead of 80%. Same difference.
>>>>
>>>> ISP C in scenario #2, that's their entire business. If ARIN counts it
>>>> unutilized, they're out of business.
>>>>
>>>> Get it?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Bill Herrin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>> ===============================================
>>> David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
>>> Networking & Telecommunication Services
>>> Office of Information Technology
>>> University of Minnesota
>>> 2218 University Ave SE
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>       Phone: 612-626-0815
>>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029   Cell: 612-812-9952
>>> ===============================================
>>>
>>> --
>> ===============================================
>> David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
>> Networking & Telecommunication Services
>> Office of Information Technology
>> University of Minnesota
>> 2218 University Ave SE
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>       Phone: 612-626-0815
>> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029   Cell: 612-812-9952
>> ===============================================
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-PPML
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>
>> --
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>
-- 
===============================================
David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
Networking & Telecommunication Services
Office of Information Technology
University of Minnesota
2218 University Ave SE        Phone: 612-626-0815
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029   Cell: 612-812-9952
===============================================
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