[arin-ppml] Are we an ISP or an End-User? Can our designation change at a later time?

[John Santos]

So, if I did the math right, Comcast has about 70,000,000,000 residential 
customers?  That's ten /48 sites for every person on Earth, and they are ALL 
Comcast customers?

Maybe they shouldn't structure their IPv6 network exactly the same as their IPv4 
network?


On 1/6/2023 2:25 AM, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jan 5, 2023, at 08:45, David Conrad <drc at virtualized.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2023, at 5:18 PM, William Herrin <bill at herrin.us> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 5:10 PM David Conrad <drc at virtualized.org> wrote:
>>>> On Jan 4, 2023, at 2:32 PM, William Herrin <bill at herrin.us> wrote:
>>>>> However, since /48 is also the minimum Internet routable size,
>>>> Sorry, what?  Out of 172,457 IPv6 prefixes seen at AMSIX (according to 
>>>> routeviews) on 2023-01-01, counts of prefixes longer than 48:
>>> Sorry, I didn't realize I'd be called out for insufficient pedantry.
>>
>> You’re aware you’re on the Internet, right?
>>
>>> The minimum IPv6 size _ubiquitously accepted_ into folks' Internet BGP
>>> tables is /48. As with IPv4's /24 boundary, some folks accept longer
>>> prefixes. As with IPv4, -some- is not enough.
>>
>> “Ubiquitous".  Like /24 in IPv4 was ubiquitous until Sprint (the 800 lbs 
>> gorilla at the time) started filtering at /19? The point being that arbitrary 
>> boundaries are overly simplistic: there aren’t hard rules here, only local 
>> policy.  But you know this.
> 
> SPRINT’s attempt to filter at /19 lasted, what, a few months before they were 
> forced to back down?
> 
> The /24 arbitrary boundary has pretty well stood the test of time as, I suspect, 
> will the /48.
> 
>>
>> Anyhow, back to the original question:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 11:52 AM Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I always found a bit strange (not only in ARIN) to have this distinction 
>>> between ISP and End-user. In practice things should not differ much. Only 
>>> thing that would possible remain slightly different are the details of 
>>> justifications that must be provided and the size of the block to be allocated.
>>>
>> In practice, ISPs tend to grow much more and more quickly than end user networks.
>>>
>>> Another thing that I wanted to understand better is the reasoning to allocate 
>>> a significant smaller IPv6 block to a said end-user organization given it is 
>>> not so scarce resource. At least a /40 should be minimal default for an 
>>> end-user (not a /48) and a /32 for any size of ISP.
>>>
>> You might want to look at RFC 6177.
> 
> I think a /48 per site is a perfectly reasonable basis for assignments. There 
> may be sties that need more, but they are likely to be few and far between and 
> there are procedures to take care of them. Note: Many end users are multiple 
> sites. An end site is defined (IIRC from what I wrote when authoring the ARIN 
> policies that are still in effect to the best of my knowledge):
> A single building or structure or a single tenant in a multi-tenant building or 
> structure.
> 
> If that’s not the exact correct wording, it’s close and mirrors the intended 
> meaning.
> 
>>> For now my personal impression is to create some artificial scarcity in order 
>>> to have different levels of Service Category.
>>>
>> Never attribute to malice what can be more easily explained by inertia.
> 
> I once had this discussion with John Brzowski of Comcast. His excuse was “If we 
> gave everyone /48s, the way our network is structured, we’d have to ask ARIN for 
> a /12. He felt this was a reason not to. I wondered why. I never got an answer.
> 
> So I would say never attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by 
> lack of imagination.
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
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-- 
John Santos
Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
781-861-0670 ext 539