[arin-ppml] FW: Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Mike Burns mike at iptrading.com
Fri Mar 18 11:35:31 EDT 2022


Hi Scott,

That option remains available regardless, but John Sweeting's recent blog post indicates that we can't expect the waiting list to be as fruitful in the future as it has been in the past.

Any company with demonstrated need on an operational and circuit-connected network can continue to avail themselves of 4.10, but whether or not this policy passes, leasing will not be a justification for 4.10 addresses.

Regards,
Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: scott at solarnetone.org <scott at solarnetone.org> 
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 11:23 AM
To: Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com>
Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] FW: Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Mike,

> 
> The primary value of the leasing company is that they are allowing the 
> effective financing of Ipv4 address space through the taking-on of 
> risk in the initial investment.  Currently there is no vehicle for 
> this, and the result is that smaller, newer, less-capitalized 
> companies are required to pay in full, up-front, for address blocks.
>

Seems as though the little guy can meet these needs with 4.10, for only the cost of annual membership.  I certainly was able to, realizing a cost savings over upstream LIR provided addresses.


Scott

> Regards,
> 
> Mike
> 
>  
> 
> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> On Behalf Of Holden Karau
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 7:29 PM
> To: andrew.dul at quark.net
> Cc: arin-ppml <arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6:
> Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization 
> for Future Allocations
> 
>  
> 
> Wait so some company could come to ARIN and ask for a block of IP 
> addresses using leasing as the justification and then turn around and lease them.
> 
>  
> 
> What value is the leasing company providing? It seems like a solid way 
> to get a bunch of LLCs formed to acquire IP addresses from the waiting 
> list and then make money for doing ~nothing.
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 4:18 PM Andrew Dul <andrew.dul at quark.net> wrote:
>
>       The draft policy as currently written does not provide any
>       additional limits against speculation.  As drafted, it allows
>       any organization (including those who do not operate networks)
>       to obtain IPv4 addresses for the purpose of leasing.
> 
>  
> 
> With that policy change what types of limits does the community think 
> would be needed?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Andrew
> 
>  
> 
> On 3/17/2022 3:00 PM, Scott Leibrand wrote:
>
>       +1 to both Owen and David Farmer's comments. Leasing IPv4
>       space is likely the best solution for some networks that
>       need those addresses to operate their network. If an
>       organization wants to acquire and lease out IPv4 space
>       without providing bundled IPv4 transit, that should be
>       allowed by policy. It might be useful for ARIN policy to
>       try to slightly dampen speculation by requiring that
>       organizations seeking to acquire large blocks of IPv4
>       space demonstrate that their current holdings are being
>       efficiently used by the organization they're registered to
>       in whois. I am not sure if this policy proposal does that
>       to my satisfaction, but once we ensure it does so, I would
>       likely support it.
>
>        
> 
> -Scott
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 1:33 PM Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML 
> <arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>
>        
>
>        
>
>             On Mar 16, 2022, at 15:22 , Fernando
>             Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> Hi David
> 
> If I understand correctly you seem to have a view that there should be 
> a ARIN policy to permit IPv4 leasing just because it is a reality and 
> we kind of have to accept it in our days. No we don't, and that's for 
> many different reasons.
> 
> Well, of course, you are free to deny reality as much as you want. 
> Many people do. It’s not particularly helpful in the discussion, 
> however.
> 
>  
>
>       I am used to see people saying the brokers are
>       doing a good thing for the community by
>       facilitating the things which in reality is
>       the opposite. It may look like a good things,
>       but the real beneficiaries are only them who
>       profit from it without much concern of what is
>       fair or not to most organizations involved.
> 
>  
> 
> You are actually mistaken here. I used to think as you do, actually. I 
> was very resistant to the first “specified transfer” policies because 
> of some of the reasons you describe. However, what you are failing to 
> recognize is
> that:
> 
> + Brokers and specified transfers were going to happen
> with or without the RIRs. If they happened without the RIRs,
> 
> there’d be no accurate record of who was using which address space and 
> the provenance of addresses would be
> 
> very difficult to support or defend.
> 
>  
> 
> * Benefit to the community from brokers: (ethical) brokers are 
> familiar with the rules in the RIRs in which
> 
> they operate and can assist their customers in accurate and compliant 
> registration updates and
> 
> aid in keeping the allocation database(s) accurate.
> 
>  
> 
> + With the economic realities of IPv4 addresses becoming
> progressively more and more expensive and the advent
> 
> of ISPs with limited IPv4 resources available, it is inevitable that 
> more and more IP service providers will be
> 
> doing one or more of the following:
> 
>  
> 
> + Separate surcharges for IPv4 addresses
> 
> + Expecting customers to supply their own IPv4 addresses
> 
> + Surcharges for IPv4 services
> 
> + IPv4 “installation charges” large enough to cover the
> procurement of addresses
> 
>  
> 
> * Brokers assist ISPs and customers in many of the above 
> circumstances.
> 
>  
> 
> + With a variety of organizations holding IPv4 addresses
> that may or may not even known they have them and whose
> 
> IPv4 resources may vastly exceed their needs, it is
> (arguably) desirable to have those addresses be transferred to parties
> 
> that have current need for IPv4 addresses.
> 
>  
> 
> * Brokers provide a valuable service to the community identifying and 
> marketing these resources
> 
> * Paid transfers provide an incentive for entities to make more 
> efficient use of the resources they have in order
> 
> to monetize the resources they no longer need. Brokers are frequently 
> able to assist in this process.
> 
>  
> 
> + With the high cost of acquisition, IPv4 addresses have
> become a capital intensive part of any network-dependent
> 
> business model that must support IPv4. Further, there is some risk 
> that this capital outlay may be fore a resource
> 
> which will abruptly and quickly lose its value and no longer be needed 
> well before it can be amortized as a capital
> 
> expenditure. As such, it may make sense for some entities to transfer 
> that risk to another organization by using
> 
> a lease structure instead of purchasing the addresses outright.
> 
>  
> 
> * Brokers that provide IPv4 leasing in an ethical and policy compliant 
> way provide a valuable service
> 
> to these businesses. Yes, their price per address may eventually be 
> more than it would have cost
> 
> them to purchase the addresses, but the same is true of virtually any 
> rental situation.  On the other hand,
> 
> that excess helps offset the risk that the lessor is taking by owning 
> a resource that may or may not remain
> 
> valuable and may or may not continue to produce revenue.
>
>       IP Leasing is very different from IP Transfer
>       which I see not problem they continue doing
>       it. IP Transfer at least we have some
>       guarantees that the directly receiving
>       organization really justify for them and that
>       is a quiet important (I would say fundamental)
>       point to look at, because that is fairer to
>       everyone involved. What guarantees we have
>       when a IP Leasing is done in that sense, that
>       fairness start to lack here.
> 
> If we set the policies up correctly, we should have the same exact 
> guarantees on a lease.
> 
>  
> 
> If $ISP acquires a /10 through transfer and then issues various 
> subordinate prefixes to their customer, the only guarantee
> 
> you have that $ISP’s customers who receive the addresses really 
> justify them is that $ISP says so. We generally trust $ISP
> 
> to act in good faith.
> 
>  
> 
> If $LESSOR acquires a /10 through transfer and then leases various 
> subordinate prefixes to their customers, we have pretty
> 
> much the same guarantee with the additional bit that $CUSTOMER is at 
> least willing to pay enough for the addresses to $LESSOR
> 
> to make the lease make sense. In general, I think it is somewhat safe 
> to assume that $CUSTOMER is not going to make a
> 
> monthly recurring payment to $LESSOR for something they don’t intend 
> to use. If one’s intent is to deprive the market and
> 
> inflate the price, then the risk profile for such a transaction is 
> vastly more favorable if you purchase rather than lease.
> 
>  
> 
> Sure, there could be lessors that don’t get reasonable justification 
> for allocations from their customers, but there are most
> 
> certainly ISPs in that category as well. Either way, you’ve got very 
> little assurance. A lessor can provide just as much
> 
> justification to an RIR for the addresses they will allocate to leases 
> as an ISP can for addresses they will lease to their
> 
> customers. The only difference is a lease with connectivity from the 
> same company or a lease from a company other than
> 
> the one(s) providing connectivity.
>
>       People see the brokers are doing a favor to
>       organizations in general by facilitating they
>       get some chunks of IPv4, but that in reality
>       makes the cost of IPv4 for both leasing and
>       transfer more and more expensive as it makes
>       organization even more dependent from
>       these those crumbs that seem to be offered
>       with good intention but in reality it is
>       feeding a system that is contrary the
>       interests to most organizations involved.
> 
> Just as you are free to mount, balance, and rotate your own tires, or, 
> you can go to a tire store and have them perform that service for a 
> fee, brokers provide a service for a fee. If you want to obtain 
> addresses in the transfer market without a broker, you’re still free 
> to do that.
> Brokers are not driving the cost of IPv4… The scarcity and difficulty 
> of operating with IPv4 is driving the cost of IPv4. Brokers are along 
> for the ride providing a service and collecting a fee for that 
> service. Whether that fee is reasonable or not is (and should be) 
> entirely in the eye of the customer. Customers are always free to walk 
> away and find a different supplier or look for their addresses 
> independently.
>
>       It may sound a cliche but IPv4 is over and
>       organizations must learn how to survive with
>       what they have, reinvent themselves and make
>       better used of their IPv4 resources, deploy a
>       proper CGNAT, deploy IPv6 either they like it
>       or not, etc. If an organization have so little
>       or none and need some minimal amount is fine
>       they seek for a Transfer of a minimal amount
>       with the help of brokers.
> 
> I agree. However, the increasing cost of IPv4 is a natural and organic 
> part of that process and sticking our heads in the sand and pretending 
> that it is not the economic reality of how the current world works 
> will not help anyone. Not the community, not organizations that are 
> short on IPv4 resources, and not the RIRs who are only useful so long 
> as their databases provide a reasonably accurate reflection of the 
> actual utilization of the address space and who controls it.
> 
>  
> 
> A broker is an LIR just like an ISP. Since ISPs are now charging for 
> addresses independent of connectivity and bandwidth, it only makes 
> sense that customers can shop for them separately from different 
> suppliers. Just like you can buy tires for your car from the 
> dealership or from some other store that sells and supports tires, 
> IPv4 addresses are moving that way as well. The RIRs can either 
> recognize this and adapt to it with policies that make sense and 
> preserve some of the things you’ve outlined as concerns above, or, 
> they can simply deny the reality of
> IPv4 leasing and lose track of how addresses are actually managed for 
> some significant chunks of the internet.
>
>       Encouraging IP Leasing as if it were something
>       normal just "because it exists today" is a
>       shot in the foot that in the long term only
>       worsens the existing scenario, it feeds a
>       market without much discretion increasing
>       final prices for everyone and what is the
>       worst of all, creates even more unfairness for
>       everyone who has always submitted to the rules
>       we have until today for distributing addresses
>       to those who really have a real justification
>       to keep control of that resource that does not
>       belong to them.
> 
> I don’t believe that a policy that merely allows IPv4 leasing can be 
> said to encourage it. Rather, it permits it, recognizes that it exists 
> and is not going to stop existing just because policy pretends it 
> can’t exist.
> 
>  
> 
> The market is not likely to be significantly swayed by policy in terms 
> of pricing, with the exception that AFRINIC has been able to preserve 
> a devalued price on addresses within their region due to their 
> restrictive lack of a transfer policy for moving addresses to/from 
> AFRINIC. However, while this has the effect of keeping AFRINIC IPv4 
> addresses less expensive on the open market, it also leads to a 
> significant amount of utilization of those addresses outside of policy 
> and quite a bit of hoarding of addresses by some of AFRINIC’s largest 
> members. ARIN’s counsel has advised against naming names here, so I 
> won’t, but if you want names, contact me off list.
> 
>  
> 
> Owen
> 
>  
>
>       Regards
>       Fernando
>
>       On 16/03/2022 13:09, David Farmer via
>       ARIN-PPML wrote:
>
>       Yes, bundling IPv4 addresses with
>       bandwidth is permitted, and in the past
>       was common practice, heck even the
>       expected practice. However, the fact
>       that IPv4 address demand isn't
>       decreasing significantly, the costs to
>       acquire new IPv4 addresses are
>       increasing significantly, and with the
>       increasing commoditization of bandwidth,
>       it is no longer economically viable to
>       bundle bandwidth, and its associated
>       connectivity, with IPv4 addressing. This
>       is driving a structural separation of
>       bandwidth, connectivity, and IPv4
>       addressing, from each other, instead of
>       bundling them together as in the past.
> 
>  
> 
> Let me state that differently; ISPs are being driven, buy cost 
> conscience consumers, to separate the costs of bandwidth and the costs 
> of the IPv4 addresses needed to utilize the bandwidth from each other.  
> Minimally this separation is achieved by accounting for the costs on 
> separate line items of a common bill from a single provider. However, 
> price competition for bandwidth and IPv4 addresses separately will 
> inevitably drive a structural separation between the two. Consumers 
> will want the best price they can get for bandwidth and the best price 
> they can get for IPv4 addresses, regardless of whether they come from 
> a single provider or not.
> 
>  
> 
> Some may argue this is being driven by the existence of address 
> brokers, and their desire to make money, I disagree. While address 
> brokers making money is the grease that keeps this machine working, 
> the need for the machine is driven by; IPv4 free pool exhaustion, the 
> increasing cost of IPv4 addresses, and the lack of adoption of IPv6.
> 
> In other words, address brokers wouldn't exist if there wasn't a 
> demand for their services.
> 
>  
> 
> In short, the economic conditions that allowed for and even encouraged 
> the bundling of IPv4 addresses with bandwidth and connectivity no 
> longer exist, that world is gone. While I have not personally yet 
> determined if I support this particular policy text, nevertheless, the 
> time has come to recognize the next step in this inextricable 
> evolution of IPv4 address policy by the ARIN policy community and 
> permit
> IPv4 leasing.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks.
> 
>  
> 
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 5:05 PM John Santos <john at egh.com> wrote:
>
>       I disagree.  The addresses are
>       useless unless they ALSO purchase
>       access and 
>       routing from another network
>       operator.  How is this cheaper?
>
>       It is and always has been allowed
>       to lease bundled access of
>       addresses and 
>       connectivity from a LIR, without
>       any expense for purchasing those
>       addresses.
> 
>
>       On 3/11/2022 12:13 PM, Tom
>       Fantacone wrote:
>       > I support the proposal as
>       written.
>       > 
>       > It facilitates the provision of
>       a valuable service to a large
>       swath of the ARIN 
>       > community, namely the ability of
>       network operators with an
>       operational need to 
>       > lease IPv4 addresses from 3rd
>       party lessors at a fraction of the
>       cost of 
>       > purchasing those addresses.  Too
>       often we have seen network
>       operators justify 
>       > their need for IPv4 space only
>       to find that they can't afford to
>       make the 
>       > purchase.  They end up using
>       CGNAT or some other sub-optimal
>       solution.
>       > 
>       > Bill, regarding your point "B",
>       by providing IPv4 leasing, these
>       3rd parties are 
>       > certainly performing a function
>       that ARIN does not.
>       > 
>       > 
>       > 
>       > ---- On Thu, 10 Mar 2022
>       17:46:36 -0500 *William Herrin
>       <bill at herrin.us>* wrote ----
>       > 
>       >     On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 8:24
>       PM ARIN
>       <info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net>>
>       >     wrote:
>       >      > * ARIN-2021-6: Permit
>       IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes
>       of Determining
>       >     Utilization for Future
>       Allocations
>       > 
>       >     I continue to OPPOSE this
>       proposal because:
>       > 
>       >     A) It asks ARIN to
>       facilitate blatant and
>       unapologetic rent-seeking
>       >     behavior with changes to
>       public policy.
>       > 
>       >     B) It proposes that third
>       parties perform precisely and only
>       the
>       >     functions that ARIN itself
>       performs without any credible
>       compliance
>       >     mechanism to assure the
>       third party performs to ARIN's
>       standards or in
>       >     accordance with the
>       community's established number
>       policy.
>       > 
>       >     Regards,
>       >     Bill Herrin
>       > 
>       > 
>       >     -- 
>       >     William Herrin
>       >   
>        bill at herrin.us <mailto:bill at herrin.us>
>       >   
>        https://bill.herrin.us/ <https://bill.herrin.us/>
>       >   
>        _______________________________________________
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>       >
>       _______________________________________________
>       > ARIN-PPML
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>       -- 
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>  
> 
> --
> 
> ===============================================
> David Farmer
>    Email:farmer at umn.edu
> Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information 
> Technology University of Minnesota
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