[arin-ppml] Deceased Companies?
Ronald F. Guilmette
rfg at tristatelogic.com
Wed Jul 27 13:54:23 EDT 2022
In message <CAEmG1=rM-utmVLD44Vf7wK1vAsaqXp5-qcovZCgA6tVuv=OpRg at mail.gmail.com>,
Matthew Petach <mpetach at netflight.com> wrote:
>If the corporation stops doing business, but someone continues to pay the
>bills for it on their behalf, I know from experience that ARIN will continue to
>preserve the number resource registrations associated with the entity.
It would appear so.
I may be alone, but I find this fact problematic in multiple ways.
For one thing, the RSA contract arguably becomes legally inoperable if the
corporate or natural-person entity that was the member has ceased to exist.
For another thing, by continuing to keep open the ARIN membership of a dead
corporate entity or a dead person, and by continuing to allow some unknown
parties to make unfettered use of that (now defunct) entity's ARIN-assigned
number resources, it could be reasonably argued, I think, that ARIN is helping
to keep the corpse in a sort of zombie state, financially speaking, and that
thus, ARIN may perhaps thus be said to be aiding and abetting state-level
>If it's a natural person who held the number resources that passes away,
>the estate goes into probate, and if a beneficiary takes over payment of
>the ARIN bills, it's unclear how ARIN would ever know the natural person
I also find this situation problematic in multiple ways, i.e. basically the
same ways mentioned above in the case of the death of a corporate entity.
How will (or how can) ARIN enforce the terms of the RSA contract against a
>It's the same as the GlobalCrossing/Level3 etc. situation.
>We don't know if the old companies still exist as legal entities or not;
I have no idea why you say that. It is easy enough to find out if a given
named corporate entity still exists or not, using readily accessible public
records. (At least this is true for corporate entities that were incorporated
in what I would call "civilized" countries. In jurisdictions such as Nevis &
St. Kitts determining whether a particular corporate entity is alive or dead
does become problematic however. But for the vast majority of the ARIN region,
and for the vast majority of all ARIN memberships, determining if the corporate
entity or natural person is alive or dead is not in any sense difficult.)
>If I had a california company, but decide I don't want to deal with
>california business taxes, and I close down the california corporation
>and incorporate in delaware instead, am I obligated to return the
>number resources, or can I simply update my registry entries to
>the new business address and continue using them?
In that specific situation there is no question, I think, that if the new
(Delaware) corporation has _legally_ acquired the assets of the old
(California) corporation, including, specifically, its ARIN-related assets,
and as long as all of the other criteria set forth in NRPM Section 8.2 are
satisfied, then all such assets are indeed simply transferred to the new
>If you go trolling through the list of defunct companies, you'd
>see my california business as being defunct; but that wouldn't
>mean ARIN should reclaim my number resources;
I agree. And in an ideal universe there should ne -zero- names of
defunct companies anywhere in the ARIN WHOIS, and certainly never as
organizations that are holding number resources.
>Just because you tell ARIN my california corporation is dead
>doesn't mean ARIN is going to reclaim my resources; they may
>well look at it, recognize that the california corporation is dead,
>but a delaware corporation has taken its place, and is paying
>the bills, and thus no action needs to be taken.
Sorry. No. In such a circumstance, ARIN should reach out to all relevant
contacts and request documentation demonstrating the _legal_ transfer of
ARIN-assigned number resource assets from the old entity to the new entity,
and if no such docummentation of _legal_ transfer is provided in a timely
manner, say, within 30 days, then ARIN should terminate the membership and
reclaim all relevant resources. Because that's the only thing that makes
sense. Otherwise, over time, zombies will end up comprising the majority
of all ARIN-registered organizations, and zombies will also end up holding a
majority of all ARIN-assigned number resources.
>If what you're really asking is for ARIN to report on every
>complaint that is issued...
As a general matter, I'm not asking ARIN to report on anything. I'm asking
ARIN if it has a sensible plan for handling end-of-life events among its
So far, the evidence seems to point to the conclusion that ARIN has no
specific plan at all for dealing with member end-of-life events.
I understand that this doesn't bother _you_. It does however bother me,
and for the reasons I have stated above, as well as one more: The kinds
of people who are still paying the bills and still making use of publicly
routed ARIN-assigned number resources that they likely have no legitimate
legal rights to are exactly the kinds of low-life characters that I have
been fighting now for 20+ years to get off the Internet. Because by and
large, they are mostly crooks who are up to no good.
Change my mind.
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