[arin-ppml] Deceased Companies?

John Curran jcurran at arin.net
Mon Jul 25 16:26:46 EDT 2022


Paul -

Let’s start over here –

1.  You (and your son) do not need to worry about revocation of your existing blocks due to expressing views on the mailing list – everyone is allowed to express their views so long as they stay within the Acceptable Use Policy (basically be on good behavior - https://www.arin.net/participate/community/mailing_lists/aup/)

2.  You reference “routing” and "root servers" as things that ARIN controls - that’s really not the case – we simply operate a registry of IP address blocks.

3.  I have enormous respect for your right to be an Old Angry Man (and personally aspire to get to that status myself someday  :-)

4.  ARIN operates a registry database that was directed to be transferred to ARIN by the US Government/NSF, and in the process of our formation ARIN agreed to operate it according to policies set by this community that are developed via an open and transparent process.

5.  To the extent that you want to chat about any of the above, feel free to reach out to me at any time: my mobile number is +1 617 512 8095.  (It might be possible to walk through some of this orally in a more efficient manner.)

Thanks and best wishes,
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

On 25 Jul 2022, at 4:08 PM, Paul E McNary via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>> wrote:

ARIN controls the root servers for this region do they not.
Without the root servers nothing gets routed.
That is a part of the number resources ARIN made commitments to maintain for all resources that had been allocated.
And yes I was well alive before Al Gore invented the Internet. :-)

________________________________
From: "pmcnary" <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>>
To: "pmcnary" <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>>
Cc: "Matthew Petach" <mpetach at netflight.com<mailto:mpetach at netflight.com>>, "arin-ppml" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 3:05:35 PM
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Deceased Companies?

John
My Son is sitting here telling me to Shut the F*** up before you revoke our IP Number resources.
So since I am semi-retired, I should do as he says
Just an OLD ANGRY MAN.

________________________________
From: "pmcnary" <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>>
To: "pmcnary" <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>>
Cc: "Matthew Petach" <mpetach at netflight.com<mailto:mpetach at netflight.com>>, "arin-ppml" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 3:02:56 PM
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Deceased Companies?

John you have repeatably told me I would risk revocation if I obtained a legacy IP block and tried to clean up the registration.
You have now changed you mind and I would no longer have to worry if I obtained a legacy IP block from a friend?
I here you speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

________________________________
From: "arin-ppml" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
To: "Matthew Petach" <mpetach at netflight.com<mailto:mpetach at netflight.com>>
Cc: "arin-ppml" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 2:58:21 PM
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Deceased Companies?

I think we are talking about number resources here not the individual numbers.
Predecessor entities (pre ARIN) made commitments for the "Number Resources" that were allocated.
ARIN assumed those responsibilities and commitments and agreed not to alter them. ie. continue to route "all" number resources that had been previously assigned by Pre-ARIN entities. ARIN keeps trying to stop honoring or threaten to stop honoring these agreed to commitments they made.

________________________________
From: "Matthew Petach" <mpetach at netflight.com<mailto:mpetach at netflight.com>>
To: "pmcnary" <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>>
Cc: "William Herrin" <bill at herrin.us<mailto:bill at herrin.us>>, "arin-ppml" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 2:46:29 PM
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Deceased Companies?


Oy vey.

We've had this discussion before.

You can't lay a property claim to a number.

Google can't "buy" the number googol, and charge people a license fee to use it
every time they count that high.

I can't "own" the number "pi" and charge everyone who tries to make a circle
using it a licensing fee.

I don't "own" my telephone number, and can't sue phone spammers for spoofing
it when they robocall other people.

IP addresses are just binary numbers.   That's it.

You can't own numbers.

All those networks that ran out of RFC 1918 space and were squatting on government
blocks?  Not guilty of theft, because the addresses aren't property:
https://www.arin.net/blog/2015/11/23/to-squat-or-not-to-squat/

I know I've configured number resources in my internal networks
that didn't belong to me, and no IP police came busting down my
door.

What matters isn't the IP number resources, it's the agreement
among the community that there will be a coordinated and accepted
injection of those number resources into the global routing table.

Using someone else's IP space internally doesn't matter one whit.

What *does* matter is when you start injecting entries into the global
routing table that go against what the database of record says should
be there.

And that's why John is so explicit that what ARIN is keeping updated
is the single source of truth for what the community has agreed belongs
in the routing table.

But if I configure your number resources internally in my network, good
luck finding any judge that will rule that I have somehow stolen your
property by configuring a binary number in my network devices.

Number resources are just integers, and nobody can lay claim of
property ownership on an integer.

End of story.

Matt


On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 12:20 PM Paul E McNary via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>> wrote:
That is why I always say John uses "Inside The Beltway" Non-Responsive language.
He just stated to me that number resources are probate-able.
That means something that has value to the estate or heirs.
Normally property. Legacy resources were issued without contract.
So contract law is not valid and it would be over 25 years old.
So property law should attach.
I think I hear John saying that, but I need an interpreter/lawyer for anything John says.
You asked him a specific question with a non-responsive answer as I always get from him.

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Herrin" <bill at herrin.us<mailto:bill at herrin.us>>
To: "pmcnary" <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>>
Cc: "Fernando Frediani" <fhfrediani at gmail.com<mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>, "arin-ppml" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 2:12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Deceased Companies?

On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 11:18 AM Paul E McNary <pmcnary at cameron.net<mailto:pmcnary at cameron.net>> wrote:
> Then why the threat?

Hi Paul,

In my opinion? ARIN has a legal house of cards built on the premise
that there are no property rights in IP addresses. It's "true" until a
court says otherwise so they want to give the court as few reasons as
possible to say otherwise. Like any legal threat, the idea is to keep
the matter out of court be gaining compliance.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
For hire. https://bill.herrin.us/resume/
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