[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Remove Circuit Requirement

Holden Karau holden at pigscanfly.ca
Wed Sep 22 14:12:42 EDT 2021

Would there be a happy medium where end users could still get allocations
for portability between cloud providers?

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 10:29 AM <hostmaster at uneedus.com> wrote:

> There are basically three "Products" that ARIN provides.  These are IPv4
> addresses, IPv6 addresses and ASN's Prior to the general expansion of
> ASN's to 32 bit, there were 2 of the three products that had no real free
> pool.  After that change, ASN's and IPv6 have no real shortage, a
> condition that is identical to the days of the famous notebook we were
> talking about earlier.
> As to ASN's and IPv6, there is no genie to put back, as just like the old
> days, there is still an enviroment of show a need, and receive without any
> need like in IPv4 to lease or buy addresses, then come to ARIN.  There is
> still a large free pool of both that can be drawn from, unlike IPv4.
> The difference of ASN's and IPv6, versus IPv4 is the shortage of numbers
> caused by exhaust.  When issuing IPv6 or ASN's, ARIN is still applying the
> same idea as the notebook, listing each resource in numeric order and
> recording each assignment/allocation, and making sure that there is no
> duplication.
> I am without knowledge as to the exact amount of transactions regarding
> each type of resource.  I did ask during an earlier discussion, and was
> told that very few holders of IPv6 resources have came back for more.  I
> also strongly suspect that those with more than one ASN is because of M&A
> activity and keeping the original deployed number, rather than a desire to
> have more than one ASN.  Applying these principals, I am assuming that
> there are actually very few transactions once the resources are provided.
> On the other hand, anyone with a large amount of holdings of IPv4 hold
> them in multiple blocks of addresses.  Each transfer is at minimum often
> involving splitting the block, leaving one portion for the original
> holder, and the remainder registered to the transferee.  These operations
> clearly are the bulk of the ARIN transactions, and therefore should
> reflect the bulk of the fees collected.  This is why I would not be
> opposed to increasing the transfer fees, to help control the increases in
> other resources such as IPv6 and ASN's
> Other operations such as enforcement are also more costly because of the
> shortage of IPv4 addresses.  There is more potential for cheating in IPv4
> than in the other resources simply because of the shortage of addresses
> I would like to see the cost of IPv4 resources be higher than IPv6 and
> ASN's which have lower costs due to lower "churn".
> Albert Erdmann
> Network Administrator
> Paradise On Line Inc.
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Mike Burns wrote:
> > Hi Albert,
> >
> > Those idyllic days are gone with the free pool.
> > Trying to hearken back to them is ignoring current reality.
> > That genie won't go back in the bottle.
> >
> > Also, strangely, I am leasing out IPv6 as well as IPv4.
> > Not sure why, the company I am leasing to has a much larger IPv6 block.
> >
> > I wouldn't mind transfer costs accurately represented in ARIN transfer
> fee charges.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> On Behalf Of
> hostmaster at uneedus.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 4:11 AM
> > To: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
> > Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Remove Circuit
> Requirement
> >
> > Using leases as justification for more addresses I believe is wrong.
> >
> > I think that ARIN worked better when there was a free pool, and people
> received from ARIN what they needed, and returned those addresses that were
> no longer needed.  That day has long passed in the IPv4 world.
> >
> > Notice how much difference there is in the operation of ARIN in respect
> to
> > IPv4 resources, and compare that to 32 bit ASN's and IPv6.
> >
> > This difference in behavior is caused by the shortage of IPv4 addresses.
> > As to the remaining items, ARIN operates much differently, because both
> ASN's and IPv6 have a free pool.  Because of this, there is no gaming the
> system, and these pools work more like the original way that ARIN began.
> > Initial IPv6 amounts are generally large enough that most do not come
> back for more, meaning less work for ARIN staff.
> >
> > Note the absence of transfer options for IPv6, or any pressure to allow
> sales and leasing of IPv6 addresses.  Because IPv6 addresses can be
> obtained at any justified level directly from ARIN, no one is going to try
> to promote sales and leasing of IPv6 addresses, because there is a natural
> price cap, since they always can be obtained directly from ARIN.
> >
> > This, and the lack of IPv6 LRSA's means that we operate in IPv6 in a
> more natural mode, where addresses are obtained as needed, and returned
> when they are not.  This is part of the reason that I like IPv6, because it
> is so much easier to deal with.  It is much the same mode that existed in
> > IPv4 before exhaust. It reminds me of a simpler time, where there is not
> that Dog Eat Dog mode that seems to dominate IPv4 currently.
> >
> > As predicted, we will likely drag this at least another 20 years before
> > IPv6 becomes the majority protocol, and the IPv4 market starts to
> collapse.  I recently learned that NCP and TCP were also run in a dual
> stack format before NCP was turned off on 1/1/1983.  I was originally
> misinformed that it was a hot cut.  The part we missed is that a shutoff
> date for IPv4 should have been set long before IPv4 ran out, but this was
> never done, and I doubt that it would ever happen now.
> >
> > IPv6 and ASN's seem to take care of themselves. Most entities once they
> receive their initial block of IPv6 and an ASN process very few
> transactions related to those items. Very few have come back for a second
> byte of the IPv6 apple.
> >
> > On the other hand, I believe that a large amount of the ARIN expenses
> and staff time revolve around IPv4 and transfers.  While the transfer fees
> help with these expenses, I do not think that these fees cover all such
> costs.  When we get to the point that IPv6 is the main protocol, I believe
> that ARIN's Costs will fall, since the staff spends so much time currently
> with things relating to IPv4.
> >
> > Albert Erdmann
> > Network Administrator
> > Paradise On Line Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote:
> >
> >> On 22/09/2021 03:49, Noah wrote:
> >>       <clip>
> >>
> >>       So they choose to lease, and address holders are happy to
> monetize their holdings while they appreciate in value.
> >>
> >>
> >> By address holders you mean LIR. So what you are saying is that some
> >> LIR out there who requested for IPv4 based on need from ARIN, are
> holding the addresses which they no longer need artificially? So that they
> can lease to small WISP?
> >>
> >> So that the purpose for which those LIR obtained the addresses in the
> >> first place?
> >>
> >> Suppose the addresses those LIR are holding with no intension to use
> >> them, were still under ARIN management, dont you think the new small
> WISP would have better off being served by ARIN as new needs arise.?
> >>
> >> If LIR dont pay ARIN lots of money, why not return the idle addresses
> to ARIN so that those with genuine need can be served.
> >>
> >>
> >> That's the whole point I have been saying about the absurd IP leasing
> is.
> >>
> >> It is quiet logical these organizations to be better off served by
> >> ARIN than a third party who probably doesn't even have justification to
> hold those addresses anymore. So either transfer them to someone who
> justify them or return them to ARIN so it can fullfil  its mission by
> assigning directly to this organization.
> >>
> >> Fernando
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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