[arin-ppml] Change of Use and ARIN (was: Re: AFRINIC And The Stability Of The Internet Number Registry System)

Lu Heng h.lu at anytimechinese.com
Fri Sep 3 03:17:29 EDT 2021


Hi

<scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午2:49写道:

>
>
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午1:12写道:
> >
> >
> >       > No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a fair
> >       market price for
> >       > what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset does
> >       not constitute a
> >       > crime.
> >
> >       Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not constitute
> >       ownership of
> >       an asset, under any circumstances.
> >
> >
> > Who decides this? All those asset purchase agreement wasn’t signed out of
> > blue.
>
> Agreements made among men and women based on erroneous premises are no
> more relevant that two people agreeing that the sky contains no stars;
> either they are both blind, they are both fooling only themselves, or one
> is dishonest, fooling the other, who is blind.


And why make you the authority to decide what is asset what is not?

Last time I check those power is with court.

>
>
> >
> > Number itself might not constitute asset. However registration in an
> unique
> > database surely is.
> >
>
> Said registration comes with responsibilites as well as rights.  Consider
> it more a position of trust to manage the assets ethically.  Such a
> position can be revoked, if that trust is broken.


That is up for the court to decide, it is uncharted territory if RIR have
such power, I think one day, a court case somewhere in the world will
decide as such and things will be more clear.

>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >       > Just because you no longer get land for free from the west,
> >       doesn’t
> >       > mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil.
> >       Capitalism rewards
> >       > those who come first, in any market.
> >
> >       Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst
> >       qualities in
> >       mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things.
> >       Unfettered, it
> >       will be civilization's undoing, ecologically.  Meanwhile, the
> >       strong will
> >       simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim themselves
> >       pioneers.
> >
> >
> > That is an accusation without base. Rich must be stealing from the poor,
> a
> > perfect communist revolution quote.
>
> Where you see accusation, I see only analysis from a lifetime of
> observation and participation.
>
> >
> > Most of market are started by pioneers—and some of them are become very
> rich
> > in the process—bill gates, Steve Jobs, for example.
>
> I suggest that you should contemplate the film "The Pirates of Silicon
> Valley" for a bit of historical perspective on these two figures.  You may
> find that you just proved my point.


No, I will not, I have my view on those two persons and you title yours—I
don’t need some film to firm such view.

>
>
> >
> > You experience clearly is not shared in this society,
>
> To which society do you refer?
>
> > which form of society
> > you are advocating?
>
> What makes you assume I am advocating for anything?  I was simply refuting
> your point that capitalism rewards pioneers. Nikola Tesla, and a great
> many other true pioneers might disagree with you, were they alive and here
> to do so.


Capitalism rewards pioneers, does not means it rewards all pioneers.

>
>
> > Capitalism can be flawed except it is the best mankind
> > have discover so far.
>
> Perhaps, perhaps not.  You are, however, entitled to your opinion.  Be
> aware that stating your opinion does not constitute fact.
>

I never claim it is fact. But what is your opinion of best form of society?
Communism?

>
> >
> >
> >
> >       >
> >       >
> >       > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:45写道:
> >       >       There is but one stream from which to drink, which
> >       belongs to
> >       >       everyone.
> >       >       We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink, by
> >       preventing
> >       >       the
> >       >       strong from damming the stream, and claiming all the
> >       water to be
> >       >       theirs.
> >       >
> >       >       On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
> >       >
> >       >       > Taking out the market and middle man, have one central
> >       body
> >       >       distribute all
> >       >       > resources and reclaim them when not needed.
> >       >       >
> >       >       > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with millions
> >       life
> >       >       dead to proof it
> >       >       > won’t work?
> >       >       >
> >       >       > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日
> >       周五下午12:03写道:
> >       >       >       +1
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       Agreed.  The middleman with no infrastructure
> >       business
> >       >       model is
> >       >       >       by
> >       >       >       it's very nature parasitic.
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       Scott
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote:
> >       >       >
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing will
> >       keep
> >       >       trying to
> >       >       >       make it
> >       >       >       > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by day as
> >       if
> >       >       these
> >       >       >       middleman were
> >       >       >       > facilitating something for the good of the
> >       internet
> >       >       while it
> >       >       >       is the
> >       >       >       > opposite.
> >       >       >       > This practice serves exclusively to the
> >       financial
> >       >       benefit of
> >       >       >       those who lease
> >       >       >       > (but are not building any Internet
> >       Infrastructure) and
> >       >       of
> >       >       >       course to the
> >       >       >       > middleman not the lessee.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > How can it be beneficial to lessee that has to
> >       pay
> >       >       more they
> >       >       >       would have to
> >       >       >       > spend if those very same resources were
> >       recovered by
> >       >       the RIR
> >       >       >       and
> >       >       >       > re-distributed directly to that same
> >       organization ?
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > It doesn't matter much how the scenario
> >       changed in the
> >       >       past
> >       >       >       and recent
> >       >       >       > years. There are principles and fairness to be
> >       >       observed and
> >       >       >       they should not
> >       >       >       > change in order to adjust the interest of
> >       these few
> >       >       ones who
> >       >       >       speculate a
> >       >       >       > resource that doesn't belong to them and
> >       wasn't
> >       >       justified for
> >       >       >       that propose.
> >       >       >       > It is just easier the RIR to recover them and
> >       do the
> >       >       right
> >       >       >       thing, for harder
> >       >       >       > and stressful it can be it is the right thing
> >       to be
> >       >       done.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > I don't mean to sound rude to those who
> >       disagree with
> >       >       me, but
> >       >       >       I really hope
> >       >       >       > RIRs in general revoke as much as possible
> >       addresses
> >       >       clearly
> >       >       >       being used for
> >       >       >       > leasing where the resource holder only
> >       speculates
> >       >       them,
> >       >       >       doesn't build any
> >       >       >       > Internet infrastructure and where in many
> >       cases don't
> >       >       even
> >       >       >       exist
> >       >       >       > connectivity between the current resource
> >       holder and
> >       >       the
> >       >       >       lessee and
> >       >       >       > re-allocate them to those who truly justify.
> >       This has
> >       >       nothing
> >       >       >       to do with
> >       >       >       > interfere in the business of that resource
> >       holder.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Often those supporting this misuse of IP
> >       resources try
> >       >       to
> >       >       >       paint a picture
> >       >       >       > that those resources are organization's
> >       property and
> >       >       the RIR
> >       >       >       should be
> >       >       >       > unable to do anything about that. Not being a
> >       >       irrevocable
> >       >       >       properly
> >       >       >       > organizations own explanations and clarity
> >       about how
> >       >       they use
> >       >       >       it according
> >       >       >       > to the what is in the best interest of all
> >       those who
> >       >       developed
> >       >       >       and agreed
> >       >       >       > the current rules in place and the
> >       organization who
> >       >       has the
> >       >       >       duty to inspect
> >       >       >       > that. Regardless the commercial model of an
> >       >       organization it
> >       >       >       must adhere to
> >       >       >       > the current rules and contract they previously
> >       signed,
> >       >       not the
> >       >       >       other way
> >       >       >       > round.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Also the understanding that a LIR leases IP
> >       addresses
> >       >       is quiet
> >       >       >       wrong. If
> >       >       >       > they are build Internet infrastructure,
> >       provide
> >       >       connectivity
> >       >       >       and charge
> >       >       >       > administrative fees for the addresses they
> >       allocate to
> >       >       that
> >       >       >       customer there
> >       >       >       > is nothing wrong with it.
> >       >       >       > I personally can understand the permanent
> >       Transfer of
> >       >       >       resources and that has
> >       >       >       > been a more natural and fair movement and why
> >       >       community agreed
> >       >       >       on that on
> >       >       >       > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful picture
> >       painted
> >       >       IP
> >       >       >       leasing brings no
> >       >       >       > good to lessee and to the Internet if things
> >       can be
> >       >       done in
> >       >       >       the proper way.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Regards
> >       >       >       > Fernando
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette
> >       wrote:
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > In message
> >       >       <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@iptrading.com>,
> >       >       >       > "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > We tried the method you've espoused below for
> >       thirty
> >       >       years and
> >       >       >       > the result were a huge amount of wasted
> >       address space.
> >       >       Once
> >       >       >       the market
> >       >       >       > was adopted, many of those addresses found a
> >       useful
> >       >       place in
> >       >       >       the routing
> >       >       >       > table.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22.  Mike, you're
> >       >       absolutely right
> >       >       >       that once
> >       >       >       > there was a free market, a lot of stuff came
> >       off the
> >       >       shelves
> >       >       >       and started
> >       >       >       > to be used productively.  But can any of us
> >       say with
> >       >       >       confidence that once
> >       >       >       > there was a free market, a lot of this
> >       commodity
> >       >       (IPv4) that
> >       >       >       was sitting
> >       >       >       > on shelves didn't just stay there -because- of
> >       the
> >       >       open and
> >       >       >       free market...
> >       >       >       > because the "owners" of those blocks
> >       effectively
> >       >       became
> >       >       >       speculators, just
> >       >       >       > waiting arond for the scarcity to become more
> >       acute,
> >       >       and for
> >       >       >       the price to
> >       >       >       > go up?
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > (I confess that I never in my life took an
> >       economics
> >       >       class,
> >       >       >       but it seems
> >       >       >       > to me that the entire field is chock full of
> >       >       head-scratching
> >       >       >       conundrums
> >       >       >       > like this... situation where you are damned if
> >       you do
> >       >       and
> >       >       >       damned if you
> >       >       >       > don't.)
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > The free pool era is dying, let's put a fork
> >       in it as
> >       >       quickly
> >       >       >       as
> >       >       >       > possible We've seen the corruption engendered
> >       by the
> >       >       bait of
> >       >       >       the
> >       >       >       > free pool in multiple registries now,
> >       including our
> >       >       own.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion on your
> >       part
> >       >       extend
> >       >       >       also to IPv6?
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Your old-fashioned method of address
> >       distribution
> >       >       would get
> >       >       >       some
> >       >       >       > addresses to those in need, I will concede
> >       that.
> >       >       However, so
> >       >       >       will
> >       >       >       > leasing addresses, with that demonstration of
> >       need
> >       >       being the
> >       >       >       lease
> >       >       >       > payment. Will  you concede that those who pay
> >       to lease
> >       >       >       addresses need
> >       >       >       > them?
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Even if nobody else does, I certainly will.
> >       But of
> >       >       course
> >       >       >       that's not the
> >       >       >       > only issue.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC thing
> >       is in
> >       >       some ways
> >       >       >       confusing as
> >       >       >       > hell because it has brought to a head
> >       -multiple-
> >       >       long-standing
> >       >       >       issues that
> >       >       >       > have then gotten all tangled up with one
> >       another,
> >       >       making it
> >       >       >       difficult for
> >       >       >       > anybody to tease apart the various separate
> >       issues.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > One of these is what might be called "equity",
> >       i.e.
> >       >       the social
> >       >       >       desire to
> >       >       >       > help Africa, a continent and a people who have
> >       been on
> >       >       the
> >       >       >       receiving end
> >       >       >       > of so much exploitation and malevolent evil,
> >       over the
> >       >       >       centuries, at the
> >       >       >       > hands of others.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Another issue is the right and proper role of
> >       RIRs.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most
> >       troubling and
> >       >       most
> >       >       >       difficult to
> >       >       >       > crack open in a way that does not merely
> >       reveal our
> >       >       individual
> >       >       >       biases) is
> >       >       >       > the question of the proper role of what I will
> >       just
> >       >       call
> >       >       >       "speculators"
> >       >       >       > within any free market.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Contrary to what some might say, I think that
> >       when it
> >       >       comes to
> >       >       >       IPv4 addresse
> >       >       >       > s
> >       >       >       > at least, it most certainly -is- possible to
> >       >       distinguish
> >       >       >       "speculators" from
> >       >       >       > actual and legitimate end users and/or
> >       legitimate
> >       >       brokers &
> >       >       >       middlemen such
> >       >       >       > as yourself.  As I understand it, the current
> >       system
> >       >       requires
> >       >       >       people to
> >       >       >       > document their equipment purchases.  No
> >       equipment
> >       >       purchases?
> >       >       >       You're almost
> >       >       >       > certainly just a speculator.
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > So then the question becomes two-fold:  (1) Do
> >       we want
> >       >       >       speculators in this
> >       >       >       > marketplace? and (2) Is there any actually
> >       feasible
> >       >       way to
> >       >       >       keep them out
> >       >       >       > of the "free" market even if the collective
> >       "we"
> >       >       firmly
> >       >       >       decided that we
> >       >       >       > wanted to do so?
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > I personally don't have answers to any of
> >       these
> >       >       questions.  I
> >       >       >       would only
> >       >       >       > offer up the observation that I am aware of at
> >       least a
> >       >       few
> >       >       >       speculators at
> >       >       >       > this moment in time, and it would be an
> >       understatement
> >       >       for me
> >       >       >       to say that
> >       >       >       > their actions seem to me to be both glaringly
> >       untoward
> >       >       and
> >       >       >       also unhelpful.
> >       >       >       > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether
> >       "speculators" are
> >       >       a
> >       >       >       necessary and even
> >       >       >       > useful component of a free market, I cannot
> >       say they
> >       >       are not.
> >       >       >       And it seems
> >       >       >       > I may not be alone in leaving open this
> >       possibility:
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >     >
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosi
> >       o
> >       >       n-
> >       >       >       a
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       > Regards,
> >       >       >       > rfg
> >       >       >       >
> >       _______________________________________________
> >       >       >       > ARIN-PPML
> >       >       >       > You are receiving this message because you are
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> >       >       at:
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> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       >
> >       >       >       _______________________________________________
> >       >       >       ARIN-PPML
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> >       >       >
> >       >       > --
> >       >       > --
> >       >       > Kind regards.
> >       >       > Lu
> >       >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >       >
> >       >
> >       > --
> >       > --
> >       > Kind regards.
> >       > Lu
> >       >
> >       >
> >       >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Kind regards.
> > Lu
> >
> >
> >

-- 
--
Kind regards.
Lu
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