[arin-ppml] Open Letter Regarding 650% Rate-Hike for Legacy Users
scott at solarnetone.org
scott at solarnetone.org
Thu Sep 16 09:45:58 EDT 2021
Hi Owen,
On Thu, 16 Sep 2021, Owen DeLong wrote:
> Only for an antiquated protocol that should have been retired over a
> decade ago.
While I agree that v4 is long in the tooth, I would only agree that it
should have been deprecated 10 years ago if we had begun the sunset
procedure 20 years ago, which was a bit early in lifespan of v6... we were
still in the 6-bone phase at that point. I would contend that if we
intend to sunset v4 in 10 years, we should start now.
>
> The costs for IPv6 are not rising as you describe.
Very true, however neither of the large monopolistic carriers that service
my area offer v6, even today, even for business class circuits. Perhaps
if you liberally apply vaseline to tolerate paying enterprise rates, they
may be persuaded find a way to route v6 to you, but perhaps not. IMHO,
they are the biggest problem in this scenario.
Scott
>
> Owen
>
>
>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 23:14 , scott at solarnetone.org wrote:
>>
>> On the other side of the coin, before deploying my AS and requesting resources as a 2xsmall, I was paying $75/mo for a /28 of v4. Now, I pay effectively $41.67/mo for a /24 and a /36 of v6. I saw a significant cost savings by deploying my own network address.
>>
>> I would like to point out, however, that it is ultimately the regular old end user who bears the brunt of the cost increases associated with IP addresses becoming commoditized in the fashion that they have. In theory, network capacity should grow while cost should go down for the consumer over time, yet IP commoditization and trading seems to fire the retro rockets on this premise, as one of the fundamental components of regular old internet service is seeing a significant cost increase.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2021, Steven Ryerse wrote:
>>
>>> +1 The little guy frequently gets hosed in resource allocations. . . . .
>>>
>>>
>>> Steven Ryerse
>>> President
>>>
>>> sryerse at eclipse-networks.com | C: 770.656.1460
>>> 100 Ashford Center North | Suite 110 | Atlanta, Georgia 30338
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> On Behalf Of hostmaster at uneedus.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 6:47 PM
>>> To: Mark McDonald <markm at siteserver.com>
>>> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Open Letter Regarding 650% Rate-Hike for Legacy Users
>>>
>>> I think he is saying the categories did not change. He never said that everyone pays the same. For as long as I can remember, us little ones pay LOTS more per IP than the big guys. When this is brought up, they always point out those large guys pay a whole lot more than us. What they fail to consider is that they ALSO get a better price per IP. As the example you noted, they are paying 64 times LESS per IP than your /19.
>>>
>>> I have always considered that unfair.
>>>
>>> Albert Erdmann
>>> Network Administrator
>>> Paradise On Line Inc.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2021, Mark McDonald wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi John,
>>>> We must be looking at different fee charts. Can you send me the one
>>>> you’re referring to? We hold a /19 and fall under the “Small” service
>>>> category, paying roughly $0.12/IP/Year. Right off the bat, we’re in
>>>> the same service category as someone holding a /18, so we’re paying twice as much per IPv4 Resource as them - but wait, it gets much, much better. Those holding a /8 are paying $0.0038/IP/Year - *64X* less than our company per IPv4 resource. Someone over there failed math class if the goal was to level the costs among all users.
>>>>
>>>> If ARIN’s goal is to get everyone paying the same per/resource, our bill should go down to $31.13/year so we’re paying the same per resource as those issued /8’s.
>>>> For an organization that’s trying to promote IP conservation, your metrics show you’re promoting the opposite - the larger the block, the less I pay.
>>>>
>>>> I broke it all down for you here:
>>>>
>>>> CIDR Number of IP's Service Category Fee Fee per/IPv4 (Resource) % of
>>>> full cost (/24) per/resource
>>>> /24 256 3X-Small $250.00 $0.9766
>>>> /23 512 2X-Small $500.00 $0.9766 100.00%
>>>> /22 1,024 2X-Small $500.00 $0.4883 50.00%
>>>> /21 2,048 X-Small $1,000.00 $0.4883 50.00%
>>>> /20 4,096 X-Small $1,000.00 $0.2441 25.00%
>>>> /19 8,192 Small $2,000.00 $0.2441 25.00%
>>>> /18 16,384 Small $2,000.00 $0.1221 12.50%
>>>> /17 32,768 Medium $4,000.00 $0.1221 12.50%
>>>> /16 65,536 Medium $4,000.00 $0.0610 6.25%
>>>> /15 131,072 Large $8,000.00 $0.0610 6.25%
>>>> /14 262,144 Large $8,000.00 $0.0305 3.13%
>>>> /13 524,288 X-Large $16,000.00 $0.0305 3.13%
>>>> /12 1,048,576 X-Large $16,000.00 $0.0153 1.56%
>>>> /11 2,097,152 2X-Large $32,000.00 $0.0153 1.56%
>>>> /10 4,194,304 2X-Large $32,000.00 $0.0076 0.78%
>>>> /9 8,388,608 3X-Large $64,000.00 $0.0076 0.78%
>>>> /8 16,777,216 3X-Large $64,000.00 $0.0038 0.39%
>>>> /7 33,554,432 4X-Large $128,000.00 $0.0038 0.39%
>>>> /6 67,108,864 4X-Large $128,000.00 $0.0019 0.20%
>>>>
>>>> I sincerely hope ARIN re-thinks this before implementation. That’s what would be fair and equitable for all.
>>>>
>>>> -Mark McDonald
>>>> President/CEO
>>>> Siteserver, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:05 PM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mark -
>>>>
>>>> In April of this year, we announced a consultation on the matter of
>>>> harmonizing ARIN’s fees and many of the issues you raised were
>>>> discussed at that time on the ARIN-consult mailing list -
>>>> https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-consult/2021-April/date.html
>>>>
>>>> As noted in that discussion, 3621 end-user customers will see their
>>>> fees decrease as a result of change. 4431 end-users (those with larger IP address holdings) will see their fees increase. After the fee changes, all customers will be paying the same fees based on their total IPv4 resources held.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding ISP/EU fees distribution, note that ARIN’s expected total
>>>> fees paid in 2021 are approximately $21 million – with ISP’s paying the overwhelming majority of the costs at approximately $17M annually.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> /John
>>>>
>>>> John Curran
>>>> President and CEO
>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 15 Sep 2021, at 3:21 PM, Mark McDonald <markm at siteserver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Curran,
>>>>
>>>> It’s unfortunate to learn about ARIN’s proposal to increase our rates by 650% from one year to the next from your EMail. It would have been nice to
>>>> receive this when this measure was being proposed. In looking through various member forums, it appears we aren’t alone. While I can appreciate
>>>> your desire to standardize rates between End Users and ISP’s, it’s obvious that ARIN provides a different set of services for ISP’s as it does End
>>>> Users. For us, ARIN stores < 50k of data in a database - similar to a Domain Registration from Network Solutions. They’re somehow able to perform
>>>> these services for about $9/year. ARIN has historically charged us $300/year for this service, and is now raising rates by 650% to $2000.00/year.
>>>> And for what? The IPv4 pool is depleted so there is no value in attempting to obtain additional IPv4 resources, while IPv6 resources are
>>>> limitless, and are charged accordingly.
>>>>
>>>> For End Users, there are no ongoing SWIP assignments or ongoing actions from ARIN that require ARIN’s resources and for those that there are, ARIN
>>>> charges for those services (new assignments, transfers, etc). We maintain numerous resources with ARIN through a different ISP account for
>>>> resources used for ISP services and pay fees (and utilize services) accordingly.
>>>>
>>>> When ARIN, or any organizational body, sends out an email stating rates are raising 650%, it makes me question how an organization that could do
>>>> something for a a set fee for so long suddenly can’t and needs to implement drastic measures to “recoup” these fees. It wreaks of inefficiency as
>>>> ARIN’s number of resources managed is going up, not down and with any business, the cost to provide services goes down as the number of customers
>>>> (resources) goes up.
>>>>
>>>> I was trying to look through the ARIN organizational documents and recent Annual Reports to see how ARIN’s income is represented (percentage of ISP
>>>> vs End-User, RSP vs Non-RSP) as your Email lacks this important information, however I was unable to find this. It would be much appreciated if you
>>>> could provide it. As a user of ARIN’s services, it would be nice to see exactly how much of a rate increase this is (increasing ARIN revenue) vs
>>>> standardizing rates, which would re-rate *everybody* (raising some, lowering others) so that ARIN’s revenue remained neutral while equally balancing
>>>> costs to provide services.
>>>>
>>>> In owning and operating businesses in the IT space, I’ve always viewed ARIN as a fair and equitable organization. Until today. Your email lacked
>>>> critical information that would have shown this as a “standardization of rates” vs a rate hike on what appears to be all legacy customers. Perhaps
>>>> the rates ARIN is charging them isn’t too low, but the rates you’re charging ISP’s is too high, or perhaps somewhere in between.
>>>>
>>>> From the Emails I’ve already received from other parties this affects, it appears the courts will ultimately decide what is legitimate and what is
>>>> not, however I feel this could have all been avoided with better communication.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark McDonald
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ARIN-PPML
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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