[arin-ppml] Open Letter Regarding 650% Rate-Hike for Legacy Users

Wed Sep 15 21:26:44 EDT 2021

Only if you can get a snowball to survive in the warm glow of the board ignoring it.

Owen

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 17:50 , Holden Karau <holden at pigscanfly.ca> wrote:
> 
> Its really great to see folkspassionate about leveling playing field for small providers. Would it make sense for those interested to work on a proposal together?
> 
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 5:17 PM Mark McDonald <markm at siteserver.com <mailto:markm at siteserver.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
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> 
>> On Sep 15, 2021, at 4:35 PM, Warren Kumari <warren at kumari.net <mailto:warren at kumari.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 6:47 PM <hostmaster at uneedus.com <mailto:hostmaster at uneedus.com>> wrote:
>> I think he is saying the categories did not change.  He never said that 
>> everyone pays the same.  For as long as I can remember, us little ones pay 
>> LOTS more per IP than the big guys. 
>> 
>> Well, yes.
>> 
>> But, I think that "paying per IP" is not a reasonable way to look at it - I don't call up and say "I'd like 7 please, with extra fries and hold the mayo".
>> You are paying for registration and administration and similar.
> 
> I disagree.  Strongly.  ARIN is handling 2048x the reverse lookup pointers, processing 2048x the SWIP events and whatever else is comprised of the services they offer.  And yes, that’s exactly how people “order” IP’s from service providers: “I’ll take 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc”.  Those result (or should result) in SWIP events @ ARIN.
> 
>> 
>>  
>> When this is brought up, they always 
>> point out those large guys pay a whole lot more than us.  What they fail 
>> to consider is that they ALSO get a better price per IP.  As the example 
>> you noted, they are paying 64 times LESS per IP than your /19.
>> 
>> I have always considered that unfair.
>> 
>> In the county where I live, I need to pay an "Electrical Permit Fee" for "Service Equipment (new, temporary or replacement)". The fees are:
>> 0 to 400 Amps -- $70
>> Over 400 Amps -- $95
>> 
>> I recently had to get a 60A panel installed, which meant that I was paying $1.16 per amp for the permit, while my neighbor, with a 400A panel only paid $0.18 per amp for his permit.
>> A 400 Amp permit is $0.23 per amp, but if you are a large consumer and get a 2000A permit it works out to only $0.05 per amp.
>> 
>> Perhaps this is unfair, and I should ask the county to charge permit costs by the amp instead -- but their work for issuing a 200A permit or a 400A permit is basically identical.
>> The over 400A permit seems also roughly the same amount of work, but someone getting that level of service can presumably justify an additional $25 for the permit.
>> 
> I can’t even start to compare a limitless product (copper) to IPv4 addresses.  Imagine if that same inspector told you he’s raising the price to inspect #6 wire 650% as that’s what ARIN is doing. ;)
>> W
>>  
>> (Many years ago a swore a solemn oath to myself to not get involved in arin-ppml threads. I'm not quite sure what has possessed me to break this oath, but I suspect I'll live to regret it...)
>> 
>> 
>> Albert Erdmann
>> Network Administrator
>> Paradise On Line Inc.
>> 
>> On Wed, 15 Sep 2021, Mark McDonald wrote:
>> 
>> > Hi John,
>> > We must be looking at different fee charts.  Can you send me the one you’re referring to?  We hold a /19 and fall under the “Small” service category, paying roughly
>> > $0.12/IP/Year.  Right off the bat, we’re in the same service category as someone holding a /18, so we’re paying twice as much per IPv4 Resource as them - but wait, it
>> > gets much, much better.  Those holding a /8 are paying $0.0038/IP/Year - *64X* less than our company per IPv4 resource.  Someone over there failed math class if the
>> > goal was to level the costs among all users.
>> > 
>> > If ARIN’s goal is to get everyone paying the same per/resource, our bill should go down to $31.13/year so we’re paying the same per resource as those issued /8’s.
>> >  For an organization that’s trying to promote IP conservation, your metrics show you’re promoting the opposite - the larger the block, the less I pay.
>> > 
>> > I broke it all down for you here:
>> > 
>> > CIDR Number of IP's Service Category Fee Fee per/IPv4 (Resource) % of full cost (/24) per/resource
>> > /24 256 3X-Small $250.00 $0.9766
>> > /23 512 2X-Small $500.00 $0.9766 100.00%
>> > /22 1,024 2X-Small $500.00 $0.4883 50.00%
>> > /21 2,048 X-Small $1,000.00 $0.4883 50.00%
>> > /20 4,096 X-Small $1,000.00 $0.2441 25.00%
>> > /19 8,192 Small $2,000.00 $0.2441 25.00%
>> > /18 16,384 Small $2,000.00 $0.1221 12.50%
>> > /17 32,768 Medium $4,000.00 $0.1221 12.50%
>> > /16 65,536 Medium $4,000.00 $0.0610 6.25%
>> > /15 131,072 Large $8,000.00 $0.0610 6.25%
>> > /14 262,144 Large $8,000.00 $0.0305 3.13%
>> > /13 524,288 X-Large $16,000.00 $0.0305 3.13%
>> > /12 1,048,576 X-Large $16,000.00 $0.0153 1.56%
>> > /11 2,097,152 2X-Large $32,000.00 $0.0153 1.56%
>> > /10 4,194,304 2X-Large $32,000.00 $0.0076 0.78%
>> > /9 8,388,608 3X-Large $64,000.00 $0.0076 0.78%
>> > /8 16,777,216 3X-Large $64,000.00 $0.0038 0.39%
>> > /7 33,554,432 4X-Large $128,000.00 $0.0038 0.39%
>> > /6 67,108,864 4X-Large $128,000.00 $0.0019 0.20%
>> > 
>> > I sincerely hope ARIN re-thinks this before implementation.  That’s what would be fair and equitable for all.
>> > 
>> > -Mark McDonald
>> > President/CEO
>> > Siteserver, Inc.
>> > 
>> >
>> >       On Sep 15, 2021, at 1:05 PM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net <mailto:jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Mark - 
>> > 
>> > In April of this year, we announced a consultation on the matter of harmonizing ARIN’s fees and many of the issues you raised were discussed at that time on the
>> > ARIN-consult mailing list - https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-consult/2021-April/date.html <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-consult/2021-April/date.html>
>> > 
>> > As noted in that discussion, 3621 end-user customers will see their fees decrease as a result of change.  4431 end-users (those with larger IP address holdings)
>> > will see their fees increase.  After the fee changes, all customers will be paying the same fees based on their total IPv4 resources held. 
>> > 
>> > Regarding ISP/EU fees distribution, note that ARIN’s expected total fees paid in 2021 are approximately $21 million – with ISP’s paying the overwhelming
>> > majority of the costs at approximately $17M annually. 
>> > 
>> > Thanks,
>> > /John
>> > 
>> > John Curran
>> > President and CEO
>> > American Registry for Internet Numbers
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On 15 Sep 2021, at 3:21 PM, Mark McDonald <markm at siteserver.com <mailto:markm at siteserver.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >       Mr. Curran,
>> >
>> >       It’s unfortunate to learn about ARIN’s proposal to increase our rates by 650% from one year to the next from your EMail.  It would have been nice to
>> >       receive this when this measure was being proposed.  In looking through various member forums, it appears we aren’t alone.  While I can appreciate
>> >       your desire to standardize rates between End Users and ISP’s, it’s obvious that ARIN provides a different set of services for ISP’s as it does End
>> >       Users.  For us, ARIN stores < 50k of data in a database - similar to a Domain Registration from Network Solutions.  They’re somehow able to perform
>> >       these services for about $9/year.  ARIN has historically charged us $300/year for this service, and is now raising rates by 650% to $2000.00/year.
>> >        And for what?  The IPv4 pool is depleted so there is no value in attempting to obtain additional IPv4 resources, while IPv6 resources are
>> >       limitless, and are charged accordingly.
>> >
>> >       For End Users, there are no ongoing SWIP assignments or ongoing actions from ARIN that require ARIN’s resources and for those that there are, ARIN
>> >       charges for those services (new assignments, transfers, etc).  We maintain numerous resources with ARIN through a different ISP account for
>> >       resources used for ISP services and pay fees (and utilize services) accordingly.
>> >
>> >       When ARIN, or any organizational body, sends out an email stating rates are raising 650%, it makes me question how an organization that could do
>> >       something for a a set fee for so long suddenly can’t and needs to implement drastic measures to “recoup” these fees.  It wreaks of inefficiency as
>> >       ARIN’s number of resources managed is going up, not down and with any business, the cost to provide services goes down as the number of customers
>> >       (resources) goes up.
>> >
>> >       I was trying to look through the ARIN organizational documents and recent Annual Reports to see how ARIN’s income is represented (percentage of ISP
>> >       vs End-User, RSP vs Non-RSP) as your Email lacks this important information, however I was unable to find this.  It would be much appreciated if you
>> >       could provide it.  As a user of ARIN’s services, it would be nice to see exactly how much of a rate increase this is (increasing ARIN revenue) vs
>> >       standardizing rates, which would re-rate *everybody* (raising some, lowering others) so that ARIN’s revenue remained neutral while equally balancing
>> >       costs to provide services.
>> >
>> >       In owning and operating businesses in the IT space, I’ve always viewed ARIN as a fair and equitable organization.  Until today.  Your email lacked
>> >       critical information that would have shown this as a “standardization of rates” vs a rate hike on what appears to be all legacy customers.  Perhaps
>> >       the rates ARIN is charging them isn’t too low, but the rates you’re charging ISP’s is too high, or perhaps somewhere in between.
>> >
>> >       From the Emails I’ve already received from other parties this affects, it appears the courts will ultimately decide what is legitimate and what is
>> >       not, however I feel this could have all been avoided with better communication.
>> > 
>> >
>> >       Sincerely,
>> > 
>> > 
>> >
>> >       Mark McDonald
>> >       _______________________________________________
>> >       ARIN-PPML
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>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >_______________________________________________
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>> 
>> -- 
>> The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the
>> complexities of his own making. 
>>   -- E. W. Dijkstra
> 
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