[arin-ppml] Change of Use and ARIN (was: Re: AFRINIC And The Stability Of The Internet Number Registry System)
scott at solarnetone.org
scott at solarnetone.org
Fri Sep 3 01:12:20 EDT 2021
> No one is claiming anything here, everyone is paying a fair market price for
> what they are using in a scare market. Owning an asset does not constitute a
> crime.
Being allocated IP addresses from a RIR does not constitute ownership of
an asset, under any circumstances.
> Just because you no longer get land for free from the west, doesn’t
> mean anyone today leasing you a house in Bay Area evil. Capitalism rewards
> those who come first, in any market.
Capitalism, from my experience, rewards many of the worst qualities in
mankind; greed, selfishness, and profit over all things. Unfettered, it
will be civilization's undoing, ecologically. Meanwhile, the strong will
simply continue to steal from the weak, and claim themselves pioneers.
>
>
> <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:45写道：
> There is but one stream from which to drink, which belongs to
> everyone.
> We simply ensure that the weakest may also drink, by preventing
> the
> strong from damming the stream, and claiming all the water to be
> theirs.
>
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Lu Heng wrote:
>
> > Taking out the market and middle man, have one central body
> distribute all
> > resources and reclaim them when not needed.
> >
> > Wasn’t humanity spend entire 20 century with millions life
> dead to proof it
> > won’t work?
> >
> > <scott at solarnetone.org>于2021年9月3日 周五下午12:03写道：
> > +1
> >
> > Agreed. The middleman with no infrastructure business
> model is
> > by
> > it's very nature parasitic.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > On Fri, 3 Sep 2021, Fernando Frediani wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Surely people benefiting from IP leasing will keep
> trying to
> > make it
> > > 'normal', acceptable and part of day by day as if
> these
> > middleman were
> > > facilitating something for the good of the internet
> while it
> > is the
> > > opposite.
> > > This practice serves exclusively to the financial
> benefit of
> > those who lease
> > > (but are not building any Internet Infrastructure) and
> of
> > course to the
> > > middleman not the lessee.
> > >
> > > How can it be beneficial to lessee that has to pay
> more they
> > would have to
> > > spend if those very same resources were recovered by
> the RIR
> > and
> > > re-distributed directly to that same organization ?
> > >
> > > It doesn't matter much how the scenario changed in the
> past
> > and recent
> > > years. There are principles and fairness to be
> observed and
> > they should not
> > > change in order to adjust the interest of these few
> ones who
> > speculate a
> > > resource that doesn't belong to them and wasn't
> justified for
> > that propose.
> > > It is just easier the RIR to recover them and do the
> right
> > thing, for harder
> > > and stressful it can be it is the right thing to be
> done.
> > >
> > > I don't mean to sound rude to those who disagree with
> me, but
> > I really hope
> > > RIRs in general revoke as much as possible addresses
> clearly
> > being used for
> > > leasing where the resource holder only speculates
> them,
> > doesn't build any
> > > Internet infrastructure and where in many cases don't
> even
> > exist
> > > connectivity between the current resource holder and
> the
> > lessee and
> > > re-allocate them to those who truly justify. This has
> nothing
> > to do with
> > > interfere in the business of that resource holder.
> > >
> > > Often those supporting this misuse of IP resources try
> to
> > paint a picture
> > > that those resources are organization's property and
> the RIR
> > should be
> > > unable to do anything about that. Not being a
> irrevocable
> > properly
> > > organizations own explanations and clarity about how
> they use
> > it according
> > > to the what is in the best interest of all those who
> developed
> > and agreed
> > > the current rules in place and the organization who
> has the
> > duty to inspect
> > > that. Regardless the commercial model of an
> organization it
> > must adhere to
> > > the current rules and contract they previously signed,
> not the
> > other way
> > > round.
> > >
> > > Also the understanding that a LIR leases IP addresses
> is quiet
> > wrong. If
> > > they are build Internet infrastructure, provide
> connectivity
> > and charge
> > > administrative fees for the addresses they allocate to
> that
> > customer there
> > > is nothing wrong with it.
> > > I personally can understand the permanent Transfer of
> > resources and that has
> > > been a more natural and fair movement and why
> community agreed
> > on that on
> > > most RIRs, but despite some beautiful picture painted
> IP
> > leasing brings no
> > > good to lessee and to the Internet if things can be
> done in
> > the proper way.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Fernando
> > >
> > > On 02/09/2021 17:39, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
> > >
> > > In message
> <058401d7a013$7797d160$66c77420$@iptrading.com>,
> > > "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > We tried the method you've espoused below for thirty
> years and
> > > the result were a huge amount of wasted address space.
> Once
> > the market
> > > was adopted, many of those addresses found a useful
> place in
> > the routing
> > > table.
> > >
> > > Well, it's sort of a Catch-22. Mike, you're
> absolutely right
> > that once
> > > there was a free market, a lot of stuff came off the
> shelves
> > and started
> > > to be used productively. But can any of us say with
> > confidence that once
> > > there was a free market, a lot of this commodity
> (IPv4) that
> > was sitting
> > > on shelves didn't just stay there -because- of the
> open and
> > free market...
> > > because the "owners" of those blocks effectively
> became
> > speculators, just
> > > waiting arond for the scarcity to become more acute,
> and for
> > the price to
> > > go up?
> > >
> > > (I confess that I never in my life took an economics
> class,
> > but it seems
> > > to me that the entire field is chock full of
> head-scratching
> > conundrums
> > > like this... situation where you are damned if you do
> and
> > damned if you
> > > don't.)
> > >
> > > The free pool era is dying, let's put a fork in it as
> quickly
> > as
> > > possible We've seen the corruption engendered by the
> bait of
> > the
> > > free pool in multiple registries now, including our
> own.
> > >
> > > Just curious Mike... Does this opinion on your part
> extend
> > also to IPv6?
> > >
> > > Your old-fashioned method of address distribution
> would get
> > some
> > > addresses to those in need, I will concede that.
> However, so
> > will
> > > leasing addresses, with that demonstration of need
> being the
> > lease
> > > payment. Will you concede that those who pay to lease
> > addresses need
> > > them?
> > >
> > > Even if nobody else does, I certainly will. But of
> course
> > that's not the
> > > only issue.
> > >
> > > The current Cloud Innovation v. AFRINIC thing is in
> some ways
> > confusing as
> > > hell because it has brought to a head -multiple-
> long-standing
> > issues that
> > > have then gotten all tangled up with one another,
> making it
> > difficult for
> > > anybody to tease apart the various separate issues.
> > >
> > > One of these is what might be called "equity", i.e.
> the social
> > desire to
> > > help Africa, a continent and a people who have been on
> the
> > receiving end
> > > of so much exploitation and malevolent evil, over the
> > centuries, at the
> > > hands of others.
> > >
> > > Another issue is the right and proper role of RIRs.
> > >
> > > Last but not leas (and perhaps the most troubling and
> most
> > difficult to
> > > crack open in a way that does not merely reveal our
> individual
> > biases) is
> > > the question of the proper role of what I will just
> call
> > "speculators"
> > > within any free market.
> > >
> > > Contrary to what some might say, I think that when it
> comes to
> > IPv4 addresse
> > > s
> > > at least, it most certainly -is- possible to
> distinguish
> > "speculators" from
> > > actual and legitimate end users and/or legitimate
> brokers &
> > middlemen such
> > > as yourself. As I understand it, the current system
> requires
> > people to
> > > document their equipment purchases. No equipment
> purchases?
> > You're almost
> > > certainly just a speculator.
> > >
> > > So then the question becomes two-fold: (1) Do we want
> > speculators in this
> > > marketplace? and (2) Is there any actually feasible
> way to
> > keep them out
> > > of the "free" market even if the collective "we"
> firmly
> > decided that we
> > > wanted to do so?
> > >
> > > I personally don't have answers to any of these
> questions. I
> > would only
> > > offer up the observation that I am aware of at least a
> few
> > speculators at
> > > this moment in time, and it would be an understatement
> for me
> > to say that
> > > their actions seem to me to be both glaringly untoward
> and
> > also unhelpful.
> > > But if you ask me IN GENERAL whether "speculators" are
> a
> > necessary and even
> > > useful component of a free market, I cannot say they
> are not.
> > And it seems
> > > I may not be alone in leaving open this possibility:
> > >
> > >https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/09/the-theranos-implosio
> n-
> > a
> > >
> nd-robert-shiller-on-short-selling-and-complete-markets/
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > rfg
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ARIN-PPML
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> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > --
> > --
> > Kind regards.
> > Lu
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> --
> Kind regards.
> Lu
>
>
>
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