[arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2019-19: Require IPv6 Before Receiving Section 8 IPv4 Transfers

Fri Nov 15 21:53:55 EST 2019

One thing I get surprised often is the amount effort some people prefer 
to put in repealing IPv6 than to deploy it.

Although I keep thinking that this proposal doesn't force anyone 
automatically to do something, I fully agree with what was said by Owen 
that "Business has a responsibility to the community(ies) in which it 
operates and It has an obligation to function as a supportive member of 
the community providing a general benefit to the community and not act 
as a parasite consuming the community in question."

Also worth quoting John's comments that "ARIN's enforces your ability to 
make productive use of any address space is predicated upon cooperation 
with the same community, you might find it difficult to argue that you 
wish the benefits of cooperation minus whatever obligations that 
community collectively establishes."

Therefore I don't believe the question about deploying IPv6 or not is 
merely a private question of any business for them to decide whenever 
they like without consequences. If still they choose not to do then they 
should have no right to complain of any obligations that community 
wishes to establish.

Best regards
Fernando

On 15/11/2019 15:53, hostmaster at uneedus.com wrote:
> My own entry into the IPv6 world began with a mandate issued by the 
> Executive Office of the President, which mandated that after a magic 
> date that all Federal networks, and therefore those of their connected 
> contractors have the ability to use IPv6.
>
> Back in 2008, this was not as easy as it seems today.  While most of 
> the basic services like DNS, SMTP and HTTP(s) servers had the needed 
> support in the most recent versions of the software, a whole lot of 
> stuff ran on earlier versions, which began the rush to first get to 
> the latest version so that we can turn IPv6 on to meet the 
> requirement. Even Windows XP, the most recent version at that time of 
> Microsoft Workstation Software had to have IPv6 added, as it was not 
> enabled by default.
>
> The people I worked with had put IPv6 in their RFPs for a few years, 
> so there was not as much hardware requiring a forklift upgrade.
>
> Today, almost anything more than a few years old has IPv6 enabled by 
> default.  It is almost unwise to have it turned off, as it can be used 
> as a bypass around your security that you do not even think of, 
> because of sayings like "This is an IPv4 ONLY shop", does not mean it 
> is not present, even just locally on your lan bypassing any 
> restrictions that you may have.
>
> At some point in the hopefully not too distant future, IPv6 will 
> become the main protocol on the Internet. In a lot of residences it is 
> already there with many major sites and large ISPs already having it 
> in place.
>
> I see this draft policy as more of a nudge than a push in the right 
> direction.  As pointed out earlier, one of the main uses of this 
> policy is to direct enterprises that wish to expand their IPv4 
> inventory to adopt IPv6, at least in the limited extent of those who 
> interact with ARIN. Often this is an IS/IT group who should be able to 
> have IPv6 working in less than a day, or can assign an intern to do 
> it. Without such a requirement, as pointed out by others, they will 
> NEVER move.
>
> Even with this policy, businesses that see no need to have IPv6 will 
> still not have to face this policy unless they are obtaining more IPv4 
> addresses.
>
> Maybe we would have been better off had China had used up the 
> remaining address space much earlier than 2011 for its academic 
> networks, instead of going to IPv6.  It would have forced these issues 
> years earlier.
>
> It is the right thing for anyone part of the Internet to have IPv6. 
> CIDR, NAT, CGnat and whatever the next band aid is not going to 
> stretch IPv4 forever, and the complications of all these devices, 
> instead of an end to end connection is going to make things harder for 
> those that remain on IPv4 and all the extra hardware to share the 
> limited address space.
>
> I think the time is right now to step forward and take a stand. If you 
> want to increse your percentage of your IPv4 holdings, you need to be 
> taking steps to also be ready for the future. That future is IPv6.  
> The policy is needed, and even the ARIN Board has agreed that anyone 
> with a need for numbers need to consider a move to IPv6.
>
> Albert Erdmann
> Network Administrator
> Paradise On Line Inc.
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2019, Owen DeLong wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 14, 2019, at 20:14 , Michel Py 
>>> <michel at arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Owen,
>>>
>>>> Owen DeLong wrote :
>>>> You seem to be assuming he’s in the internet business. He made it 
>>>> pretty clear he’s talking from
>>>> the enterprise perspective where the internet isn’t the revenue 
>>>> generating portion of the business,
>>>> but merely one of the many tools used by the business to accomplish 
>>>> its revenue goals.
>>>
>>> Indeed. The Internet is not the same thing as the Internet business. 
>>> There is no Internet without customers. Some customers, such as the 
>>> mobile market and the low-end residential market can be forced into 
>>> IPv6 because they control nothing, but the enterprise market is not 
>>> subject to this. The enterprise adoption is a trickle, for reasons I 
>>> have explained publicly for years.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry to say it bluntly, but the enterprise business is about 
>>> making money, not saving the world from an impending doom that has 
>>> not happened. I say it again : the problem of IPv6 is that it is a 
>>> solution to a problem that I do not have.
>>
>> Well… More accurately, it is a solution to a problem that you feel it 
>> is better to live with than to solve. In short, you feel that the 
>> barriers to implementing the cure are worse than living with the 
>> symptoms of the disease.
>>
>> Like or to, the need for NAT is a problem at least most enterprises 
>> have. The fact that we have an entire generation of engineers who 
>> have grown up not understanding the advantages of end-to-end 
>> addressing (and don’t understand that stateful inspection is a 
>> dependency for NAT, but can be implemented without header mutilation) 
>> further complicates the recognition of this problem, but you and I 
>> are both old enough to remember an IPv4 internet with transparent 
>> addressing and the benefits thereof.
>>
>> Making matters worse, enterprises failing to deploy IPv6 enjoy all of 
>> the advantages of the toxic polluter business model. The costs of 
>> their refusal to move forward with the rest of the internet are borne 
>> not by those making said refusal, but pushed off on those sharing the 
>> internet with them who cannot complete their transitions so long as 
>> there is a critical mass of enterprises holding back progress.
>>
>>> 6 years ago, you thought that I was full of it. We had a couple 
>>> beers and you respectfully dismissed me as an IPv4-only crackpot.
>>
>> Oh, I still think you’re full of it to some extent. I don’t think I 
>> dismissed you as a crackpot so much as we respectfully agreed to 
>> disagree on several areas. I think little has changed in the 
>> intervening years.
>>
>>> With you, I do not seek revenge. You are a formidable opponent and I 
>>> respect you as such, but look back in the past.
>>
>>> From my perspective, there is nothing to seek revenge for. I don’t 
>>> see you as an opponent so much as just someone with a differing 
>>> opinion and operating on a different time line.
>>
>> You feel that the self-serving advantages of delaying IPv6 deployment 
>> in your environment outweigh the broader public interest advantages 
>> of proceeding to a point where IPv4 deprecation can begin. From a 
>> purely Ayn Rand/Gordon Gecko oriented perspective, this is one 
>> available philosophy. It’s the same mentality that will likely lead 
>> to human extinction through global climate change… It’s the attitude 
>> that a business should first and foremost maximize profit above any 
>> other concern.
>>
>> It’s not a philosophy I embrace. Does a business have an obligation 
>> to make a profit? Certainly. Does a business have other duties 
>> besides maximizing profit? IMHO, yes. IMHO, a business has a 
>> responsibility to the community(ies) in which it operates. It has an 
>> obligation not to dump toxins into the local rivers for those living 
>> downstream to deal with. It has an obligation not to partially 
>> offload the payment of its employees onto the taxpayers (a la a 
>> certain large well known chain of stores). It has an obligation to 
>> function as a supportive member of the community providing a general 
>> benefit to the community and not act as a parasite consuming the 
>> community in question.
>>
>>> 6 years ago, when we shared a couple beers on stage. I told you so. 
>>> You did not listen. You were wrong.
>>
>> This will likely not surprise you, but I disagree. Even then, I 
>> agreed that enterprises would likely be the last class of laggards 
>> procrastinating the deployment of IPv6.
>>
>> You say that this procrastination will likely continue indefinitely. 
>> I feel that its days are numbered. Not as short as I’d like to see, 
>> but I believe sooner than you expect.
>>
>>>> I disagree with Michel in a number of areas. He and I have had 
>>>> frank discussions about this.
>>>> However, the points he raises are legitimate and we ignore or 
>>>> dismiss them at our peril.
>>>
>>> I am glad you realize the peril part of it. 6 years ago, you never 
>>> thought I would be challenging you publicly on this. 6 years ago, 
>>> you would not even have considered the possibility that we would 
>>> have this talk on this mailing list.
>>
>> Actually, I am not at all surprised to see you still publicly 
>> challenging me on this. I may not have predicted 6 years ago that it 
>> would be you, but I fully expected some contingent of IPv6 opponents 
>> would still exist in the enterprise realm and that this discussion 
>> would still be ongoing.
>>
>>> There is one more thing you should realize about enterprise business 
>>> : they like people who have been steady in predicting the future.
>>> I'm on track.
>>
>> Meh… I’m fond of the saying that Prior Performance does NOT guarantee 
>> Future Results.
>>
>> The nice thing about the enterprise world is that no enterprise is 
>> for ever and new ones come to life every day. There is a time coming 
>> in the not too distant future where deploying a new enterprise 
>> without IPv6 will seem as silly as deploying one without IPv4 today.
>>
>> At that point, then it’s just a matter of time before a combination 
>> of ever increasing quantities of new enterprises combined with 
>> attrition of old ones shifts the dynamic.
>>
>> Things may move slower that many of us would like because of the drag 
>> induced by people who share your mindset, but, nonetheless, time is 
>> on the side of those of us who believe IPv6 will eventually replace 
>> most of the current IPv4 utilization on the internet.
>>
>> Eventually (assuming we manage not to go extinct due to climate 
>> change in the meantime), we will get there. The question is will we 
>> ever realize the wisdom of ripping off the bandage, or, will we 
>> continue to peel at the edges making a slightly lower level of pain 
>> last for a much much longer time period. Personally, I prefer a 
>> shorter period of slightly more significant disruption. You obviously 
>> prefer to endure a prolonged period of pain (or denial about pain in 
>> your case).
>>
>> Owen
>>
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