[arin-ppml] [EXT] Re: Open Petition for ARIN-prop-266: BGP Hijacking is an ARIN Policy Violation

Fri May 3 18:05:29 EDT 2019

Hi,

On Fri, 3 May 2019, David Farmer wrote:

> Simply getting involved in hijacking is not what is proposed. And, by the way, ARIN and the other RIRs already are involved, heard of RPKI, IRR, etc...  You can't say the problem is being ignored.  Are these responses truly
> effective? Maybe not. Do we need to do more? Probably. Is this the answer? Maybe, but it really scares me.
> 
> This proposal wants ARIN and the other RIRs to penalize hijacking.  To do this someone has to judge the intent behind these events. From the other side of the Internet, it is difficult with any certainty to tell the difference
> between a typo and malicious activity in many of these events. 

That's perfectly fine. If there is any shred of doubt then a report should 
be dismissed.

> Have you ever been on a jury in a murder trial? I have.

I haven't.

> The difference between the various counts of murder and manslaughter 
> basically comes down to determining the intent involved in the actions 
> causing the death of another human being. If you are involved in the 
> death of someone and even if there is no culpable negligence or intent 
> on your part, such an event is important enough for society to 
> scrutinize your actions.
> 
> So, I have some questions back to you; 
> Have you ever mistyped an IP address or an ASN? 

I think everyone involved with BGP at some point have done that.

> Across the Internet, how many mistyped IP addresses and ASNs occur on a daily basis? 

Several, for sure.

But the spirit of this proposal is not about mistakes. Mistakes can be 
explained. People doing hijacks for several years (hopping from prefix to 
prefix) is a whole different story.

> This proposal asks ARIN and the other RIRs to create a system to

This one only asks ARIN. :-)
There are proposals in RIPE and LACNIC that are very similar.
And there are plans for submitting in AFRINIC and APNIC.

> scrutinize the actions of network operators and also impose penalties 
> for those actions. This is not something that should be taken lightly.

Yes, and it isn't.

> It is possible anyone on this mailing list will have to have their 
> actions judged by this system. The proponents of this proposal want you 
> to think this proposal only affects hijackers. That is not the case, 
> this proposal affects anyone who operates a router.

Potentially, yes. Depending if a victim decides to file a report.

> It puts anyone who operates a router in jeopardy of losing their 
> Internet resources, for possibly something as innocent as making a typo 
> in their router config.  

I think that is ruled out just in the beginning of the proposal's text.

> Do we really need and want to go there? I'm not saying no, but let's be 
> really sure. And we have to make sure we get the system right, because 
> any one of us may have to be judged by this system. When I look at this 
> proposal, I don't see enough due process or safeguards involved that I 
> feel comfortable subjecting myself to it. 

Great. So let's improve those. We already had a lot of input in RIPE, that 
allowed a much more second version -- it's currently waiting for an impact 
analysis to be published.

> To be honest, I see more of a lynch mob mentality then true justice in 
> this proposal.

"lynch mob" - 2 vs. "pandora's box" - 2.

:-)

That certainly isn't the case. If you think the process is not 
"guarantistic" enough (meaning, go all the way to exclude false 
positives) then let's improve it.

> When evaluating this proposal, don't envision a hijacker being judged, 
> envision yourself being judged by this system, because you just might 
> be.    

Yes, i've actually done that while writing parts of the text. I know that 
everyone can make mistakes, and i've certainly done them. However, 
unresponsiveness, hopping through dozens of blocks (you don't have 
holdership over), doesn't really match with my org's profile, and i think 
with most orgs in the world which run networks. :-)

Regards,
Carlos

> Thanks
> 
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 9:05 AM Andrew Bagrin <abagrin at omninet.io> wrote:
>       I'm curious why do people not want to let ARIN try to start getting involved to help resolve the issue of hijacking?
> Are you doing hijacking and don't want interference?
> Are you running a competitive service that you charge for?
> 
> Does anyone believe there is a valid reason to hijack and advertise IP space that you do not own? (when the owner of that space does not want you to advertise it)
> 
> Why would anyone be against ARIN having a process to help resolve these issues?  Sure we can question how effective it will be, but anything will be more effective than nothing, and by actually doing, failing and learning, ARIN
> will only improve and refine the process. We will all learn from this.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:08 PM Marilson Mapa <marilson.mapa at gmail.com> wrote:
>       The president of ARIN describes his institution as an RIR with appropriate and functional policies. This is what we can deduce from his speech whenever he describes the performance of his institution. This same
>       attitude can be seen in RIPE.
> 
> "Violation can have consequence".
> 
> It seems that the expression "can have" should be understood as "almost never", after all how to explain the rot that permeates the global Internet? The complaints, the lawsuits, the fines are becoming more and more
> frequent.
> I have today received as a member of BPF Cybersecurity the document **UN 1st Committee Processes on Responsible State Behaviour in Cyberspace explainer**. This 25-page document, addressed to ICANN, reports what they call
> disastrous behavior. It was drafted by Rubin International Law Firm and Notary of Israel for a Jewish religious institution. 
> 
> Basically they are demanding:
> "We require ICANN to terminate immediately the activities fostering Internet addiction, including the performance of relevant IANA functions, relevant gTLD activities, relevant Registry Operators' activities, relevant
> ICANN-accredited registrars' activities, including through RESP and amendments of registry and registrar agreements and to refrain from renewing the .info registry agreement with Afilias unless Afilias and its related
> companies terminate immediately activities fostering Internet addiction and the .info registry agreement is amended to prohibit Internet addiction activities."
> 
> It's just one of the thousands of complaints popping up around the globe. And ARIN does not move a finger... It's out of the scope...
> 
> Marilson
> 
> 
> Em qui, 2 de mai de 2019 às 17:01, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> escreveu:
>       > On May 2, 2019, at 2:12 PM, Carlos Friaças via ARIN-PPML <arin-ppml at arin.net> wrote:
>       > ...
>       > It seems evident that a RIR can't revoke legacy space. Ever.
>
>       Carlos -
>
>       In the case of ARIN that would be incorrect, as ARIN has revoked legacy address space from parties that have violated registry policies.
>
>       ARIN registry policies are applicable to all parties in the registry - those legacy holders under RSA do have specific terms and conditions (and a reduced fee schedule), but ARIN registry policies are
>       applicable regardless and violation can have consequence.
>
>       Thanks!
>       /John
>
>       John Curran
>       President and CEO
>       American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
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> 
> --
> ===============================================
> David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
> Networking & Telecommunication Services
> Office of Information Technology
> University of Minnesota  
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