[arin-ppml] Revised: Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the Definition of Community Network

Tue Oct 3 14:59:10 EDT 2017

I am also concerned that “educational organization” is too broad.
Are we really saying that Harvard, USC, Ohio State, etc. are so cash strapped that they could not afford to pay the same as any other business?
Yes, I know the current text covers them, I also think that is wrong.

Mike

From: ARIN-PPML [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jason Schiller
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 12:31 PM
To: Kevin Blumberg <kevinb at thewire.ca>
Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised: Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the Definition of Community Network

Id like to come at "Information Technology services" from the opposite direction.

I propose the following thought experiment:
1. remove "other Information Technology services" text
2. assume "providing free or low-cost connectivity" means:
   A. provide transit to eyeballs to persons or entities within their community
   B. provide transit to servers providing CDN to/from persons or entities within their community

3. what service is not covered?

also this definition is tied to 6.5.9.

Is 6.5.9 needed? useful?

Is the purpose of 6.5.9 to give community networks
the flexibility to choose to be an IPv6 end-user when they
normally wouldn't?

And if they take such option they SHALL be considered
an IPv6 end-user for all ARIN matters, but will be considered
an IPv4/ASN ISP/end-user as per those policies normally?

So does this mean a Community network who provides transit
to residents via wi-fi, could choose to be an IPv6-only service,
and get an end-user /48 and pay annually $100 / year as
an end-user?

If that same community network was donated an IPv4 /24,
and wanted to add IPv4 transit would they then hold an
IPv6 assignment and an IPv4 allocation?  Does this mean their
annual fees are
$100 for the IPv6 end-user /48 + $250 for the IPv4 ISP 3X-Small

OR

just $250 for the IPv4 ISP 3X-Small (which over rides the end-user fees)

OR

are they billed as an end-user
$100 for the IPv6 end-user /48 + $100 for the IPv4 /24

Could we eliminate 6.5.9 if \
1. the 3X-small category was $100?

2.A. we change 6.5.2.1.b to read as follows:
" In no case shall an LIR receive smaller than a /32 unless they
specifically request a /36, /40, /44, or /48.
In no case shall an ISP receive more than a /16 initial allocation."

I'd support a raising of my fees if that was necessary to fix this.

___Jason

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 1:40 AM, Kevin Blumberg <kevinb at thewire.ca<mailto:kevinb at thewire.ca>> wrote:
Andrew,

I don’t have a solution for the Information Technology text, other than to remove it. It creates a loophole that anything could be considered a Community Network.

Replying to your answers.

2) Is charitable organization a synonym or fall under the umbrella of non-profit?
AD: My understanding is that this was intended as a synonym, a list of descriptors that could be used to define a community network.
               KB: It would make sense to remove Charitable organization if it is only a synonym.

3) Why is the scope limited to post-secondary institution when many smaller communities would not have that? Could accredited educational institution be used instead?
AD: The text has been updated to "educational institution"
KB: My apologies on reading the wrong text from the website. Thanks for the clarification.

4) I agree with Chris W. that "play a large role" is very ambigous.
AD: Do you have a suggestion of text that might be more descriptive?  For example would a percentage of revenue / wages ratio be applicable?   That was an idea, but I'm not sure one could easily come up with a ratio that works.
KB: The word large could be 15%, depending on who you ask. In TCP/IP 1 percent loss is large. A non-specific term will more than likely default to the lowest possible. I would suggest that majority or 50% are more appropriate.

5) The last sentence should be reworded completely. Critical functions may be handled by paid staff, implies that volunteers shouldn't handle Critical functions or that paid staff shouldn't handle menial work?
AD: Should we substitute "Critical" with "Some"?
KB: Changing Critical to Some would be fine.

Thanks,

Kevin Blumberg

From: Andrew Dul [mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net<mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net>]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 5:45 PM
To: Kevin Blumberg <kevinb at thewire.ca<mailto:kevinb at thewire.ca>>; arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>

Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised: Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the Definition of Community Network

On 9/20/2017 11:01 AM, Kevin Blumberg wrote:
>
>
> I am opposed to the policy if it includes “or other Information Technology services”. That would basically be any defined organization that has a website.

Do you have a suggestion of what might be more appropriate wording?  We were trying to suggest that a community network might provide more than basic connectivity.

On 9/20/2017 10:21 AM, Kevin Blumberg wrote:

Andrew,

Is this the current text of the policy?

The text on 2017-8 on the website does not match. The text below includes " or other Information Technology services" which does not appear on the website (https://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2017_8.html)

Can you please confirm which is the correct version, I have written my repsonses based on the website.

1) Can a "Volunteer Group" sign the RSA?
I'll let ARIN staff answer this part.

2) Is charitable organization a synonym or fall under the umbrella of non-profit?
My understanding is that this was intended as a synonym, a list of descriptors that could be used to define a community network.

3) Why is the scope limited to post-secondary institution when many smaller communities would not have that? Could accredited educational institution be used instead?
The text has been updated to "educational institution"

4) I agree with Chris W. that "play a large role" is very ambigous.

Do you have a suggestion of text that might be more descriptive?  For example would a percentage of revenue / wages ratio be applicable?   That was an idea, but I'm not sure one could easily come up with a ratio that works.

5) The last sentence should be reworded completely. Critical functions may be handled by paid staff, implies that volunteers shouldn't handle Critical functions or that paid staff shouldn't handle menial work?

Should we substitute "Critical" with "Some"?

-----Original Message-----

From: ARIN-PPML [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Andrew Dul

Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 11:21 AM

To: arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>

Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Revised: Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the Definition of Community Network

Hello all,

We will be discussing this draft proposal at the upcoming ARIN meeting in San Jose.  If you have comments on the updated draft posted below, we'd certainly like to hear from you so we can help shape the conversation in person.

We have seen some support for this updated draft, but not a lot.

Furthermore, have we addressed all of your concerns which you might have noted earlier on the 1st version of the policy text.

Thanks,

Andrew

On 8/24/2017 8:22 AM, ARIN wrote:

Draft Policy ARIN-2017-8: Amend the Definition of Community Network

Problem Statement:

The Community Networks section of the NRPM has not been used since

implementation in January 2010. Proposal ARIN-2016-7, to increase the

number of use cases, was abandoned by the Advisory Council due to lack

of feedback. Proposal ARIN 2017-2, to remove all mention of community

networks from NRPM was met with opposition by the community. Many

responded that the definition of “community network” was too narrow,

which could be the reason for lack of uptake.

Policy statement:

CURRENT NRPM TEXT:

“2.11. Community Network

A community network is any network organized and operated by a

volunteer group operating as or under the fiscal support of a

nonprofit organization or university for the purpose of providing free

or low-cost connectivity to the residents of their local service area.

To be treated as a community network under ARIN policy, the applicant

must certify to ARIN that the community network staff is 100%

volunteers.”

NEW NRPM TEXT:

“2.11 Community Network

A community network is a network organized and operated by a volunteer

group, not-for-profit, non-profit, charitable organization, or

educational institution for the purpose of providing free or low-cost

connectivity, or other Information Technology services to persons or

entities within their community. Critical functions may be handled by

paid staff, but volunteers play a large role in offering services

available through community networks.”

Comments:

Timetable for implementation: Immediate _

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