[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 128, Issue 7
dmahoney at dataonenetworks.biz
dmahoney at dataonenetworks.biz
Fri Feb 19 19:10:23 EST 2016
Here also as I also support this policy change proposal.
On 2/19/16 6:29 PM, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
> I also support this policy change proposal.
> On 2/19/16 11:01 AM, Mike Burns wrote:
>> Hi McTim,
>> That RIPE labs report is not evidence of the speculation we are
>> considering in the context of the current policy.
>> You are opposing this policy because you think it will
>> enable/encourage speculation in the transfer market.
>> This policy is related to transfers, not to over-allocations made
>> under the old regime.
>> This particular country's addresses were not purchased on the
>> transfer market. They were accumulated prior to exhaust under the
>> then-extant needs-based allocations policies, aka longstanding
>> policies, aka proper stewardship. And then (somewhat) after exhaust
>> via gaming the "/22 for new ISPs" rule at RIPE.
>> This is not evidence of speculation on the transfer market, it is
>> merely the evidence that market forces act on this resource already.
>> They can induce corruption, rules-avoidance, oh yes indeed they can.
>> But as I sort of said, that genie is out of the bottle.
>> We should be attentive related to evidence of this kind of
>> speculation involving allocations from the final free pool in
>> AFRINIC, I am sure we both agree on that.
>> Changing the rules about needs-testing paid transfers is not going to
>> enable/encourage or disable/discourage profit and rent-seeking.
>> Profit and rent-seeking is allowed under current policy and will
>> happen regardless of policy anyway.
>> That won't be significantly changed by maintaining needs tests for
>> ARIN transfers.
>> After all, if you can't justify, become a RIPE member and buy RIPE
>> addresses. It's as simple as that.
>> Anybody can do it, plus they get a /22 for their trouble! And then
>> they can buy RIPE addresses without demonstrating need.
>> So what is the point of retaining this needs test in the current
>> We can't stop market forces from acting on IPv4 addresses, but we
>> should understand that these forces can also induce the movement of
>> unused resources into productive use. In fact that is the natural
>> thing. We have brokered the sale of so many blocks which were unused
>> for decades. This is evidence of this positive effect of the market.
>> Now since I have admitted that market forces can lead to corruption
>> and rules-avoidance, can you acknowledge that bringing dusty old
>> blocks back into productive use is a positive effect of the market?
>> One ideologue to another ? ;-)
>> Anyway I guess we both understand each other's positions by now, so I
>> will just register my support for the policy and step off the soapbox.
>> PS made it to the end without mentioning Whois accuracy!
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 12:17 PM
>> To: Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com>
>> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 128, Issue 7
>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
>>> The existence of your company and other "brokers" isn't evidence
>>> enough that people want to make money solely by buying and selling
>>> v4 resources?
>>> Methinks you fail to see the forest for the trees!
>>>> Hi McTim,
>>> I'm really not sure what you are saying above, but actually the
>>> existence of brokers like me is in fact evidence that people want to
>>> make money solely by buying and selling IPv4 addresses.
>> Of course, there has been speculation going on for years in the EU.
>> Look at the top ten by country table near the bottom of this page:
>> and ask yourself why one small country punches above its weight in
>> exported v4.
>> While these PI blocks were acquired within policy, it is clear that
>> they were obtained for later resale, which is definition #2 below:
>> the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
>> "there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
>> investment in stocks, property, or other ventures in the hope of gain
>> but with the risk of loss.
>> "the company's move into property speculation"
>> So I am not in favor of removing restrictions on bad behaviour just
>> because some have engaged in said behaviour in other regions. I am
>> not saying this is fraudulent behaviour, but certainly speculative in
>> nature and not in the best interests of the Internet community. That
>> of course is my ideology showing, and I make no bones about it.
>> I am a big fan of accuracy in public network information databases,
>> which is why I authored "no reverse without assignment" in the
>> AFRINIC region, so the whole "you don't care about registry accuracy'
>> argument doesn't fly with me.
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