[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2

Aaron aaron at wholesaleinternet.net
Tue Jun 2 12:01:13 EDT 2015


Exclusivity is not guaranteed outside of the registry.  We can both put 
the same address on a piece of equipment.  Who has the rights to use 
that address?  Most people say it's whoever has the entry in the registry.

I'd be happy to sell you the number 4.  It will be up to you to prove to 
people that you have the exclusive right to use it and for them to 
accept that right.



On 6/2/2015 10:48 AM, Mike Burns wrote:
>
> First a diversion:
>
> I continue to hear RFC2050 used to buttress the continuance of needs 
> testing today.
>
> It should be obvious to anybody that **in the presence of a free 
> pool** that without needs testing transfers, you effectively remove 
> needs testing altogether.
>
> Otherwise someone could get addresses, transfer them away to a 
> needless entity, and repeat the process to drain  the pool. A 
> non-starter, obviously.
>
> So of course we needed to needs-test transfers then, but the argument 
> today is in the context of a drained free pool, and so the logic 
> behind RFC2050’s testing of transfers is likewise draining away.
>
> Onto this discussion:
>
> What is happening in this discussion is, in my mind, the tail wagging 
> the dog.
>
> It’s as if your local property registrar in your county has determined 
> that when you buy a property, you are really buying the listing at the 
> registrar’s office.
>
> Instead of the fact that you are buying real property and the 
> registrar is merely registering your ownership, not providing your 
> rights to it. Just because IP addresses are not tangible, like real 
> property, doesn’t mean they only exist as database entries in a 
> registrar’s list. Especially as we have demonstrated that that list is 
> not dispositive insofar as being able to utilize or transfer rights to 
> utilize the addresses. We all know that ARIN is not the routing police.
>
> What David and other are saying is that your rights are to an 
> exclusive set of numbers to be used on the Internet, not to a registry 
> listing. And as proof of that position, they point to the fact that 
> address rights are transferred very effectively without regards to the 
> ARIN registry. There is no denying this. Legacy sellers legally sell 
> their rights for money, buyers pay money and then use the addresses as 
> they wish, and ARIN’s registry has nothing to say.
>
> ARIN has played typical historical role of the over-reaching steward 
> who comes to feel the resources being stewarded belong to the steward 
> and not the king.
>
> So the answer to John’s question of what is being transferred? The 
> exclusive right to use a block of numbers on the Internet, deriving 
> from a continuous chain-of-custody of rights granted legally by the US 
> Department of Commerce. For legacy holders, anyway. For non-legacy 
> holders, their rights derive from the RSA with ARIN, and ARIN’s rights 
> derive from their MoU with the US Department of Commerce.
>
> Imagine a thought experiment. I have a pool of 100 mutually exclusive 
> numbers of which one is a lotto winner. I can sell each number to a 
> buyer without a registry but with a contract. If I sell the same 
> number to two individuals, those individuals can take legal actions 
> based on the contract that assures exclusivity. So there are legal 
> rights to numbers conferred via the contract that do not have anything 
> to do with a registry. I might use a registry to keep track of things, 
> but that is secondary to the legal rights contractually conferred.
>
> Imagine a though experiment. I received an allocation from Jon Postel, 
> acting under the authority of the US Department of Commerce. I have an 
> email from him with the block numbers I was assigned. I use the 
> addresses for five years but then find that they were not properly 
> recorded by Mr. Postel, or were incorrectly transferred to a 
> subsequent registrar like ARIN.  Can’t I take the original email (the 
> contract here) to a judge and demand that the registry be changed to 
> match my email?  Or, since the rights are “provided” by ARIN, wouldn’t 
> I be out of luck, since the rights are to a registry entry, and the 
> entry doesn’t match my email? In other words, which is primary, a 
> contract granting me exclusive use of numbers on the Internet, or 
> ARIN’s control of their registry system?
>
> A registrar records property rights, it doesn’t create them.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Burns
>
> *From:*arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] 
> *On Behalf Of *John Curran
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 02, 2015 10:36 AM
> *To:* David Conrad
> *Cc:* arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2
>
> On Jun 2, 2015, at 9:04 AM, David Conrad <drc at virtualized.org 
> <mailto:drc at virtualized.org>> wrote:
>
>     John,
>
>     On Jun 1, 2015, at 4:48 PM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net
>     <mailto:jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
>
>          Your confusion is likely over what represents “correct
>         attribution” - if ARIN does not
>
>          operate the registry according to the policies set by those
>         who use it,
>
>
>     In your view, who uses "the registry"?
>
>     Do network operators, anti-abuse community members, law
>     enforcement, consumer protection agencies, etc., make "use" of
>     "the registry"?
>
> All of the above parties (and all of them can participate in
>
> defining the registry policy)
>
>
>         One can argue that the ARIN community shouldn’t have policies
>         that inhibit transfers
>
>
>     One could, but I am not. I don't care if "the ARIN community"
>     comes up with a policy defining the sky to be green.  There are
>     numerous mechanisms by which the ARIN community can enforce policy
>     such as a prohibition against (particular) transfers: refuse to
>     delegate reverse DNS, refuse to update the ARIN routing registry,
>     imbed notifications of policy violations in registration records,
>     call the out-of-policy transferees names, etc. None of these
>     defeat the very reason for the existence of the registry. Refusing
>     to update the registration database does.
>
> David -  you seem to think that there's some "thing" transferred
>
> other than rights to the registry entry itself; ie ARIN is "refusing
>
> to update the registration database", as if it were a registration
>
> of some independent item - an automobile, for example.   What
>
> exactly are the IP address blocks if not the registry entry that
>
> was created when same is assigned?
>
> It is necessary to address this if you are to claim of any accuracy
>
> resulting from ARIN following community policy.
>
>          but I don’t think you’re actually advocating that ARIN ignore
>         community policy in the
>
>          operation of the registry?
>
>
>     The "community" that makes use of the registry is larger than "ARIN".
>
>     If the subset of the community that participates in the definition
>     of ARIN policy decided to create a policy that effectively
>     destroyed the registration database, yes, I would definitely
>     advocate ARIN, the corporate entity (or, more specifically, the
>     ARIN board), ignore that policy. I believe the board would
>     actually have a fiduciary responsibility to do so.
>
>     I believe failure to maintain an accurate registration database
>     (defined to be one that matches actual reality, not one that
>     corresponds to what an infinitesimal subset of the Internet
>     community thinks might be a good idea on any particular day) is a
>     violation of the trust Jon Postel and the Internet community as a
>     whole has placed upon ARIN when ARIN was granted the monopoly for
>     registry services for the ARIN service region.
>
> Again, this assertion is based on your interesting interpretation
>
> that ARIN should update the register contrary to policy.
>
> With respect to Jon and the time of ARIN's formation, it is fairly
>
> clear that the current policies regarding need-based transfer
>
> would align quite well with his expectations, especially since the
>
> transfer policy at the time, as stated in RFC 2050, was such:
>
> "7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR."
>
>         Could you please clarify if that is what you are suggesting?
>
>
>     That ARIN abide by RFC 7020, section 2.3 and section 7.
>
> Done.  You have yet to explain how and what is actual transferred
>
> that differs from the rights to the entry in the IP registry.  If there is
>
> something else transferred (and thus discrepancy if the registry is
>
> not updated), please elucidate. If indeed the IP address block is
>
> one and the same with the rights to entry in the registry, there is
>
> no inconsistency at all.
>
>
>
>     One more time:
>
>
>             Historically, the point of the registry database was to
>             facilitate management
>
>             of the network, e.g., a place you could look up
>             registration information
>
>             when you wanted to contact the entity associated with the
>             source address.
>
>             In the post IPv4 free pool world, what's the point of the
>             American _Registry_
>
>             for Internet Numbers again?
>
>
>     Your continued attempts to dodge this question is getting depressing.
>
> The actual use of the registry has to obtain the place where you
>
> _start_ such a process, noting that ISP's/LIRs delegate blocks
>
> to organizations, and that the real world has things like LOA's
>
> that are often used, etc.
>
> None of this has changed - you still start the process with the
>
> registry, and need to pursue to find the operational contact you
>
> seek.  ARIN following its community policy doesn't change this
>
> in the least, and you probably are aware of this reality existed
>
> long before any transfer market.
>
> Thanks!
>
> /John
>
> John Curran
>
> President and CEO
>
> ARIN
>
>
>
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-- 
================================================================
Aaron Wendel
Chief Technical Officer
Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097)
(816)550-9030
http://www.wholesaleinternet.com
================================================================

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