[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML 2015-2

John Curran jcurran at arin.net
Tue Jun 2 10:35:47 EDT 2015

On Jun 2, 2015, at 9:04 AM, David Conrad <drc at virtualized.org<mailto:drc at virtualized.org>> wrote:


On Jun 1, 2015, at 4:48 PM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:
 Your confusion is likely over what represents “correct attribution” - if ARIN does not
 operate the registry according to the policies set by those who use it,

In your view, who uses "the registry"?

Do network operators, anti-abuse community members, law enforcement, consumer protection agencies, etc., make "use" of "the registry"?

All of the above parties (and all of them can participate in
defining the registry policy)

One can argue that the ARIN community shouldn’t have policies that inhibit transfers

One could, but I am not. I don't care if "the ARIN community" comes up with a policy defining the sky to be green.  There are numerous mechanisms by which the ARIN community can enforce policy such as a prohibition against (particular) transfers: refuse to delegate reverse DNS, refuse to update the ARIN routing registry, imbed notifications of policy violations in registration records, call the out-of-policy transferees names, etc. None of these defeat the very reason for the existence of the registry. Refusing to update the registration database does.

David -  you seem to think that there's some "thing" transferred
other than rights to the registry entry itself; ie ARIN is "refusing
to update the registration database", as if it were a registration
of some independent item - an automobile, for example.   What
exactly are the IP address blocks if not the registry entry that
was created when same is assigned?

It is necessary to address this if you are to claim of any accuracy
resulting from ARIN following community policy.

 but I don’t think you’re actually advocating that ARIN ignore community policy in the
 operation of the registry?

The "community" that makes use of the registry is larger than "ARIN".

If the subset of the community that participates in the definition of ARIN policy decided to create a policy that effectively destroyed the registration database, yes, I would definitely advocate ARIN, the corporate entity (or, more specifically, the ARIN board), ignore that policy. I believe the board would actually have a fiduciary responsibility to do so.

I believe failure to maintain an accurate registration database (defined to be one that matches actual reality, not one that corresponds to what an infinitesimal subset of the Internet community thinks might be a good idea on any particular day) is a violation of the trust Jon Postel and the Internet community as a whole has placed upon ARIN when ARIN was granted the monopoly for registry services for the ARIN service region.

Again, this assertion is based on your interesting interpretation
that ARIN should update the register contrary to policy.

With respect to Jon and the time of ARIN's formation, it is fairly
clear that the current policies regarding need-based transfer
would align quite well with his expectations, especially since the
transfer policy at the time, as stated in RFC 2050, was such:

"7.  The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be
       approved by the regional registries.  The party trying to obtain
       the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were
       requesting an IP address directly from the IR."

Could you please clarify if that is what you are suggesting?

That ARIN abide by RFC 7020, section 2.3 and section 7.

Done.  You have yet to explain how and what is actual transferred
that differs from the rights to the entry in the IP registry.  If there is
something else transferred (and thus discrepancy if the registry is
not updated), please elucidate.   If indeed the IP address block is
one and the same with the rights to entry in the registry, there is
no inconsistency at all.

One more time:

Historically, the point of the registry database was to facilitate management
of the network, e.g., a place you could look up registration information
when you wanted to contact the entity associated with the source address.
In the post IPv4 free pool world, what's the point of the American _Registry_
for Internet Numbers again?

Your continued attempts to dodge this question is getting depressing.

The actual use of the registry has to obtain the place where you
_start_ such a process, noting that ISP's/LIRs delegate blocks
to organizations, and that the real world has things like LOA's
that are often used, etc.

None of this has changed - you still start the process with the
registry, and need to pursue to find the operational contact you
seek.  ARIN following its community policy doesn't change this
in the least, and you probably are aware of this reality existed
long before any transfer market.


John Curran
President and CEO
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