[arin-ppml] Proposal ARIN-2015-8

Jose R. de la Cruz III jrdelacruz at acm.org
Mon Dec 7 05:24:33 EST 2015

Owen: "...*but I don’t believe that would help because I believe that
anything which does not meet the definition of an “end user” is de fact an
ISP*." OK, this makes sense. But...what about the cdn's and similar uses?
Then, should the 'end user' definition be broadened or changed?

David: "*In what way does the operator community benefit from a difference
in rules (especially wrt Whois)?* " Exactly. The issue is to find out if
some distinction is needed in order to sort out the 'problems' stated by

After reading the comments, it seems that access to the database is part of
the issue. So, should end users have access to the database? It might well
be that the 'definition' and 'access' issues are two separate problems that
need to be addressed.


On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:02 AM, David Huberman <
David.Huberman at microsoft.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Owen.
> Moving to the issue at hand, then, I have a problem with your wording.
> You wrote:
> "Because as an end-user so long as we have IPv4, I count addresses
> assigned to hosts, while as an ISP, I count
> networks delegated to subscribers."
> Then what's Microsoft? What's Akamai?
> Microsoft has "delegated networks" (whatever that means) to VMs for the
> exclusive use of a subscriber.
> We provide no last-mile connectivity to anyone.
> No one else can use the IP address while the host is provisioned, and it's
> questionable if the IP address is used exclusively for our infrastructure
> (it's not - the VM is outside the infrastructure - it's an edge device
> meant for access by a non-microsoft host)
> Does Akamai configure any VIPs where the content is for a subscriber
> (whatever that means), and not exclusively for use in your infrastructure?
> Maybe it's clear cut in Akamai's case. I don't know.  But it's definitely
> not clear cut in the land of the cloud, or even in more traditional hosting
> setups (dedicated hosting, VPSes, etc.) where the customer accesses the
> equipment from their own last-mile network.
> So a possible solution is to redefine:
> ISP offers last-mile connectivity
> Everyone else is an EU.
> /david
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