[arin-ppml] Policy idea: POC Validation
David.Huberman at microsoft.com
Mon Apr 13 16:36:35 EDT 2015
I can give you a great example that's timely. My company ordered some circuits from ISP X recently. ISP X has a policy that they only do REASSIGN DETAIL. They registered the reassignments with POC data that points to a network engineer who ordered the circuit. It's the way their system works.
The engineer emailed me very angry that her information was in ARIN Whois - and in fact, in Whois many times with multiple iterations of her POC -- POC1, POC2, POC3, POC4, POC5, etc all with the same information pointing to her. It even included her direct phone number, which happened to be her mobile phone, and she was upset about that.
Luckily for her, she knew who ARIN was, she knew who the hostmaster was in our company (me!), and I knew how to get it fixed.
BTW, in order to get it fixed, I chose to do what I thought was the right thing: I asked ARIN to "consolidate" the reassignment records into my main OrgID. ARIN *would not do it* without the explicit written permission of ISP X. (Luckily for us, ISP X consented.)
Hope that helps,
David R Huberman
Principal, Global IP Addressing
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 1:30 PM
> To: David Huberman
> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Policy idea: POC Validation
> I don’t see the angry phone call as the problem. I see it as a symptom.
> The problem is the incorrect registrations. I want us to find out about those
> incorrect registrations and resolve them. I certainly don’t want to simply
> remove the symptom (angry phone call) by masking the problem (incorrect
> > On Apr 13, 2015, at 1:23 PM, David Huberman
> <David.Huberman at microsoft.com> wrote:
> > Hi Ted,
> > Thanks for the reply.
> > By "indirect resource registration records", I meant reassignment records.
> ISP has a /17. They reassign a /28 to a customer, and decide to put customer
> POC information on it. That POC only exists because of the /28 - it isn't a POC
> for any directly registered allocation, assignment, or AS number. These are
> the POCs who are complaining en masse to ARIN after receiving POC
> Validation communications. My reasoning for removing POC validation for
> these types of POCs is that ISPs have the option to not register POCs at all --
> they can choose "REASSIGN SIMPLE" as a path for registering SWIP
> information, and that doesn't have any POC info. Secondly, I'm not convinced
> there's a significant value in up-to-date POC information for reassigned
> numbers. In the end, the ISP (the direct registrant) is the party responsible
> for the IP addresses and use. (And in 90%+ of cases, the ISP is responsible
> for routing in the DFZ, too. For the cases where a reassigned block is
> announced by th
> > e customer, there's a customer ASN easily found in the routing tables,
> > and that contact information is more germane than a SWIP record.)
> > I hope that's clearer.
> > David
> > David R Huberman
> > Principal, Global IP Addressing
> > Microsoft Corporation
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net]
> >> On Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt
> >> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 12:12 PM
> >> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
> >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Policy idea: POC Validation
> >> As one of the initiators of this policy I must state that none of us
> >> who worked on this ever assumed the POC Validation Policy would be
> >> the END of the process.
> >> The idea was that when a POC was marked invalid, that ARIN would
> >> institute an investigation into the number resources held by the
> >> invalid POC and if they did locate the actual holder, they would give
> >> that holder 30 days to supply valid POC contact info for whois that
> >> would replace the bogus invalid contact info.
> >> If the holder wasn't forthcoming, ARIN will delete the POC.
> >> Resources that have no POC's justifying their existence are then freed up
> for reassignment.
> >> If ARIN is not doing this, then it is completely understandable that
> >> you would be getting large numbers of phone calls from people annoyed
> >> that their email addresses are still in whois.
> >> So, ARIN can start doing this and thereby make the people happy who
> >> are complaining, and at the same time, freeing up resources that are
> >> held by stale or bogus POC data.
> >> You said "indirect resource registration records"
> >> What exactly is that?
> >> In my opinion, ANY POC that is in whois that is associated in any way
> >> with an organization or individual who has IP addresses, and is being
> >> used as justification for holding resources, must remain in the validation
> >> It seems quite obvious and apparent that POCs that ARIN has judged to
> >> be invalid, and is in the process of investigating, would be calling
> >> and complaining. In general people who are doing things they
> >> shouldn't be doing, don't like to be investigated would certainly would
> >> That can be solved easily by deleting their records and thereby
> >> freeing up resources. Then you don't contact them again and the
> >> community gets back the IP addressing they have held.
> >> Does not a POC that is being contacted by ARIN have the right to have
> >> their information deleted? If they are calling in and complaining
> >> that their records are in there, they obviously want them removed.
> >> So, ARIN can remove them and stop bothering them.
> >> You need to define the difference between "indirect resource
> >> registration records" and "associated with an active directly registered
> number resource"
> >> before anyone can really make a judgement on this policy proposal
> >> It just seems very simple to me. If they are a POC they are there
> >> because their existence is justifying some IP address holding in some
> >> way, there is some connection. If their POC is no longer justifying
> >> an IP address holding and there is no connection whatsoever to an IP
> >> address holding, then take their POC out and doing so will automatically
> quit contacting them.
> >> Ted
> >> On 4/13/2015 11:11 AM, David Huberman wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> Richard Jimmerson's Policy Experience Report indicated that 50% of
> >>> the
> >> phone calls that RSD receives are about POC validation, and that they
> >> receive many angry emails and calls from POCs who are only associated
> >> with indirect resource registration records. In response, I offer the
> >> following change to the NRPM :
> >>> Existing text:
> >>> 3.6 Annual Whois POC Validation
> >>> 3.6.1 Method of Annual Verification
> >>> During ARIN's annual Whois POC validation, an email will be sent to
> >>> every
> >> POC in the Whois database. Each POC will have a maximum of 60 days to
> >> respond with an affirmative that their Whois contact information is
> >> correct and complete. Unresponsive POC email addresses shall be
> >> marked as such in the database. If ARIN staff deems a POC to be
> >> completely and permanently abandoned or otherwise illegitimate, the
> POC record shall be marked invalid.
> >> ARIN will maintain, and make readily available to the community, a
> >> current list of number resources with no valid POC; this data will be
> >> subject to the current bulk Whois policy.
> >>> I propose we make the first sentence read:
> >>> "During ARIN's annual Whois POC validation, an email will be sent to
> >>> every
> >> POC in the Whois database that is associated with an active directly
> >> registered number resource."
> >>> Thoughts?
> >>> David
> >>> David R Huberman
> >>> Principal, Global IP Addressing
> >>> Microsoft Corporation
> >>> _______________________________________________
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