[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers

David Miller dmiller at tiggee.com
Wed Jun 4 23:37:05 EDT 2014

On 6/4/2014 10:57 PM, Elvis Velea wrote:
> Hi David,
> On 05/06/14 04:50, David Miller wrote:
>> Proper stewardship of the ARIN function demands that ARIN policy
>> adjust to what happens in the market.  It's not the other way around,
>> if only because that's not how markets work.
>> If, and only if, one redefines ARIN's function as *only* bookkeeping.
> Once ARIN runs out of IPv4, it's only function in IPv4 will be the
> bookkeeping.

Not if a needs basis remains for transfers.

>>> The ARIN CEO, ARIN's General Counsel, the Harvard economist ARIN pays,
>>> professors who study markets, brokers who operate in the market, and
>>> buyers and sellers who buy and sell in the market have all told the
>>> ARIN community the same story for around 5 years now: the market is
>>> going to act as a market, and ARIN policy needs to be ready for it;
>>> ARIN policy needs to make sense with the dynamics of the market.
>> In addition to internet number resources, there are also 'markets' in
>> drugs, stolen cars, ivory, endangered species, and human slaves.
> Still, ARIN, like APNIC and the RIPE NCC, recognize the IPv4 Brokers and
> even provides a Listing service.
> You can not compare the IPv4 market to the 'human slaves market'. One is
> legal, the other one is not.

I did not "compare" the two markets.  I simply stated that they are both
markets.  All of the experts cited above will agree that they are both

>> The fact that a 'market' exists does not, in and of itself, imply that
>> policies should be adjusted so that the market can function more
>> efficiently.
>> There seems to be a hidden assumption here that number resources with
>> incorrect registration are "as good as" those with accurate
>> registration, and thus all that is being requested is that the db be
>> cleaned up.  If that were actually the case, then I doubt we would be
>> having this discussion.
> My router will not care if the database registration is accurate.

I know the value to me of the addresses you are using being registered
to you.

If the registration of the addresses you use is unimportant (and it
appears that is the case you are making), then why do you care?

I suspect it is because your upstreams almost certainly will care if you
are trying to announce prefixes that do not appear to be allocated to
you.  Also, your customers will probably care if you are assigning them
IP addresses that don't appear to be allocated to you. ...and so on...

>> If there is a benefit to accurate registration through legitimization of
>> this market on an unlimited scale, that outweighs the negative impacts
>> of hoarding, speculation, and IPv6 denial, then I haven't seen it yet.
>> I am, however, open to being convinced.
> The market is already legitimized. Check the RIR websites and their
> links to the market and the recognized IPv4 Brokers.

The full phrase I used was "legitimization of this market on an
unlimited scale" and it was intentional.

> cheers,
> elvis
>> -DMM


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