[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers

[Martin Hannigan]

I disagree. It's not as clear cut as you'd like to fantasize it is.

Best,

-M<

On Saturday, June 14, 2014, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:

> Nobody is denying resources to organizations that can document need. I
> don’t know what your persistent failure is in this regard or why you are
> finding it difficult. However, I have yet to see a case where any
> reasonable need was turned away by ARIN unless one or more of the following
> circumstances existed:
>
>         1.      The requestor refused to submit sufficient documentation.
>         2.      The requestor refused to sign the RSA
>         3.      The requestor refused to comply with community developed
> policy.
>         4.      The requestor’s need was so small that they could not
> qualify under policy.
>                 Note: This last one has been so completely reduced in
> recent policy cycles that it is hard to imagine a scenario where it would
> apply to any
>                 but the most deliberate and stubborn of corner cases.
>
> As such, I’m sorry, but absent your willingness to disclose specific
> examples in detail, I find your argument suspect at best.
>
> Owen
>
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 11:46 AM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Owen, I would turn your argument around where you said " The fact that
> IP number policy does not have the force of government regulation doesn’t
> change the fact that circumventing community adopted policy for your own
> greed is tantamount to stealing someone’s furniture."
> >
> > I wouldn't use the word greed but I would say that denying real
> resources to real organizations now is stealing their future too!
> >
> > Steven Ryerse
> > President
> > 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338
> > 770.656.1460 - Cell
> > 770.399.9099- Office
> >
> > ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
> >                     Conquering Complex Networks℠
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
> Behalf Of Owen DeLong
> > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 9:31 AM
> > To: Brandon Ross
> > Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net List (arin-ppml at arin.net)
> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
> >
> >
> > On Jun 11, 2014, at 1:36 PM, Brandon Ross <bross at pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 11 Jun 2014, Matthew Petach wrote:
> >>
> >>> I cannot absolutely prevent you from stealing my furniture if you so
> >>> desire.  However, that doesn't mean I'm not going to put a lock on my
> >>> front door to at least make it harder for you, and make it patently
> >>> clear that you're doing so against my express desires.
> >>
> >> As has been mentioned here before, stealing furnature is a criminal
> offence, writing a contract giving exclusive rights to address space is
> not.  That's a pretty crucial difference.  If breaking and entering and
> stealing furnature were legal, the small help of a lock on my porch screen
> door would make little difference to a "bad actor".  Locks keep honest
> people honest, but if an activity is not widely agreed to be immoral, locks
> won't help.
> >
> > This is a distinction without a difference. The fact that IP number
> policy does not have the force of government regulation doesn’t change the
> fact that circumventing community adopted policy for your own greed is
> tantamount to stealing someone’s furniture.
> >
> > Arguing that because policy doesn’t carry the force of law, we shouldn’t
> have policy is not, IMHO, what you want to do here. That basically serves
> as a request for real regulators to come in and develop number resource
> regulation in place of our lack of policy.
> >
> > At its core, the internet is built on cooperation among the various
> entities connecting to the network. That cooperation is governed by rules
> built through a community consensus process. While I agree the process
> isn’t perfect, I would argue that it has worked far better than any
> legislative processes I have observed and that we probably prefer to keep
> it.
> >
> >>> I'll ask plainly; for everyone voting for needs-free transfers; would
> >>> you still vote that way, *if in doing so, you were guaranteed to not
> >>> be able to obtain any number resources under the new policy*?
> >>
> >> I don't have any address resources now, and I don't ever plan on having
> any in the future, so sure, why not?
> >>
> >>> If not, I would claim your votes are not guided by the good of the
> >>> community; they're guided by self-interest, and a hope and desire
> >>> that you can get something for less effort than you can by following
> >>> the current guidelines.
> >>
> >> Oh really?
> >
> > I think he was more talking about Mike B. and Steven R., than you,
> Brandon.
> >
> >> Much like Owen, I have a nice little business of helping small
> organizations navigate the ARIN process to get address space.  It's not a
> majority of my income, but it's pretty nice and easy work for me.  If needs
> basis goes away, guess what else goes away?
> >>
> >> Even though Owen and I are on opposite sides of this coversation, I can
> guarantee you right now that both of us, without fail, are arguing solely
> for what we think is best for the community.
>
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