[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
lar at mwtcorp.net
lar at mwtcorp.net
Tue Jun 10 16:15:01 EDT 2014
On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 20:11:15 +0000
Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
> Get used to it because even if this Community doesn’t relent and ease up on needs requirements, the marketplace will take up the
>slack outside of ARIN - and a 2nd (or more) defacto marketplace will be created. It is inevitable and short of a law being past
>you and I can’t stop it. As you probably know this is already happening with the IP brokers out there and I could easily see
>another RIR who is out of resources joining up with significant 3rd party brokers to fill IPv4 needs at market prices worldwide.
> There is another supply of IPv4 resources out there in the form of all those Legacy /8’s that were given out many years ago, and
>I suspect that demand will bring some of those resources to market. That supply could defer switching to IPv6 for years and not
>everyone likes IPv6.
>
Then maybe the discussion we should be having is how to reclaim un-needed IPV4 space.
> I just don’t understand why ARIN & Community would sit pat when their allocation will be gone in a year or two and life will
>change around them. Seems prudent for ARIN & Community to join the fray instead of digging in against it. Loosening up needs
>testing on just a /24 is so far from joining the fray it is hard for me to see why someone as knowledgeable as you doesn’t want
>to see the forest from the trees.
>
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338
> 770.656.1460 - Cell
> 770.399.9099- Office
>
> [Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png]℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
> Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
>From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:46 PM
> To: Steven Ryerse
> Cc: Owen DeLong; Matthew Kaufman; arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com<mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>> wrote:
> If I understood your comment below, you are now agreeable to remove SOME of the needs tests on only a /24. I suppose that is a
>change but not much of one at all and it will only help the smallest of the needs out there MAYBE if they can pass whatever your
>relaxed needs test would be. Yes maybe that is a slight shift in your position but pretty negligible
>
> it's a huge paradigm shift for me.
>
>
> and NOT IMHO what is really needed.
>
> it is not at all what is needed for your org, certainly.
>
>
>
>
> If this was 10 or 15 years ago and I was in a position to block an allocation request of yours for say a /22 that you really
>needed, I doubt you would be very happy if I told you that you could only have a /24 and then only if you could pass some
>arbitrary test that I came up with. In the real world folks need real allocations and current policy stands in the way.
>
>
> If it was 10-15 years ago and I NEEDED it, I could have shown that easily and gotten my /whatever.
>
> 10-15 years ago i was a RIR hostmaster. The bar is NOT very high to show need, it certainly wasn't then, and I don't think it
>has gone up!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338
> 770.656.1460<tel:770.656.1460> - Cell
> 770.399.9099<tel:770.399.9099>- Office
>
> [Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png]℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
> Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
>From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com<mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com>]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:30 PM
>
> To: Steven Ryerse
> Cc: Owen DeLong; Matthew Kaufman; arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>
> Is is indeed a significant shift in my position.
> I think that is something you should recognise.
> I'm all for giving small orgs the space they need, which seems to be what you want. However, ido not believe that this policyt
>does that for you, or indeed for anyone in a way that is cheaper than getting the space from the RIR.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com<mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>> wrote:
> Wow! A whole /24 – that’s pretty generous of you! What a large compromise that is . . . .
>
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338
> 770.656.1460<tel:770.656.1460> - Cell
> 770.399.9099<tel:770.399.9099>- Office
>
> [Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png]℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
> Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
>From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com<mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com>]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:29 PM
> To: Steven Ryerse
> Cc: Owen DeLong; Matthew Kaufman; arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>
> Hi Steven,
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com<mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>> wrote:
> There are several folks (like me) who want to ditch the needs test and there are several folks who don't want to ditch them. I
>take it your position is that the folks who want to keep needs tests should somehow prevail in this argument without much or any
>change, and those of us who wish to ditch them should just accept the status quo with needs tests. In other words you win and we
>lose!
>
> I saw a lot of folks comment here recently who want to at least loosen needs tests on the smaller block sizes, many many more
>than I've ever seen before. Since it is obvious a sizable portion of this community desires a change toward loosening policies,
>why is it that you persist in standing in the way of compromise?
>
> As for me, I think relaxing (not eliminating needs assessment at a /24 boundary is plenty of compromise.
> See Andrew Dul's most recent mail for possible scenario's.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
>
>
> There comes a time when fair is fair - and small organizations are routinely discriminated against because of our small size and
>not so deep pockets. There is a lot of anger out there over the unfairness of these existing policies. It should be just as
>easy for us to get resources as it was for T-Mobile and others. I call on all members of this community to at least come to a
>compromise. After all the world hasn't ended for RIPE with their changes - and it won't end here either if fairness is put back
>into the policies so that small organizations can get the resources they need too!
>
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338
> www.eclipse-networks.com<http://www.eclipse-networks.com>
> 770.656.1460<tel:770.656.1460> - Cell
> 770.399.9099<tel:770.399.9099>- Office
>
> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
> Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>
>[mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 7:25 PM
> To: Matthew Kaufman
> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>
>>
>> Matthew Kaufman
>>
>> ps. I'd also note that "policy that expresses the general intent of the community" may in fact *be* policy that lets post-runout
>>transfers be performed without a needs test, as "the community" consists of a lot more than "Owen”.
>
> Indeed, it does. However, many people have also repeatedly stood up in defense of needs basis, so singling me out as if I am the
>lone supporter of preserving needs basis is as specious as many of your other arguments.
>
> Owen
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
Larry Ash
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