[arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2014-14, WAS Re: About needs basis in 8.3 transfers

[John Springer]

OP of "[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers", I hope this has 
been useful to you. And the speech in Bellevue. As shepherd of 2014-14, I 
am less sure of what I may make of it.

It is a lovely philosophical discussion. Clearly an excellent opportunity 
for adherents of two diametrically opposed camps to ascend the lofty 
pulpit and orate, without the messy necessity of voicing support or 
opposition to the Draft Policy that theoretically all of this refers to, 
this being a list for the discussion of public policy.

Comments to each of my esteemed collegues below.

On Mon, 9 Jun 2014, Andrew Dul wrote:

> On 6/6/2014 8:06 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
>> All we are debating is the presence or absence of needs assessment as a 
>> gatekeeping function for that market.

Not precisely. For unless you are just commenting generally about an 
unconnected bunch of opinionating, you are commenting about 2014-14, 
which, while it is about "the presence or absence of needs assessment" may 
not be relegated to a simplistic gatekeeping function by your merely 
stating that it is so. 2014-14 seeks to address a specific issue (transfer 
request processing time) that happens to fall within a much larger context 
(access to number resource rights). Using one to draw conclusions about 
the other runs immediately afoul of the several ergo propter hocs. Unless 
you are not referring to 2014-14, in which case carry on, my bad.

>> This is a fairly administrative and technical argument, not a moral one.

Not really. For instance, what argument is that? And I sure thought I read 
some moralizing in this long thread which is not invalidated by the 
previous statement.

>> Efficiency is the key criterion (not fairness, really).

2014-14 or not, you decide.

>> If you support needs assessments you have to make a case that the costs 
>> and burdens associated with it are justified by quantifiable benefits.

In what context? 2014-14? If so, you're getting way too fancy. IMO, that 
is what the proposal author is trying to do, (make the case, not get 
fancy). To express support for the DP, (if that's what you are trying to 
do), all the double negatives here are kinda confusing. If you are 
speaking to an opponent of the DP, they do not in fact have to make the 
case as you describe. I sort of have to make the opposite case.

>> In this case, inefficiency is unfairness: if the needs assessment 
>> process prevents resources from going where they are wanted most, or if 
>> the cost burdens associated with the process exceed the value of the 
>> numbers acquired for small operators, or if it is shown that large, 
>> established companies with well-established relationships to ARIN can 
>> navigate the process more easily, then there are signs that needs 
>> assessment is unfair because of its inefficiencies.

You said above efficiency and fairness were not really the key criterion, 
here you say they are the same (or rather that their opposites are, 
which implies...). Which do you mean?

>> You have to do a better job of explaining why it is "fair" to force a 
>> willing seller and a willing buyer to submit to an additional step when 
>> that step both limits the quantity of resources available for transfer 
>> and raises the cost of participating in the market by a substantial 
>> degree.

Again, if you are trying to help rebut opponents of 2014-14, this is not 
their job. The failure to prove the converse leads to status quo. Whomever 
you might be addressing with this comment apparently needs no 
encouragement to continue to make this exact case at some length. I would 
find more useful, comments why this is _NOT_ fair. Call me kooky.

> Milton,
>
> Thank you for this two paragraph summary of what we are debating here.

So, Andrew. As one shepherd of 2014-14 to another, what are we to do with 
"Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers" WRT 2014-14? Are 
arguments there able to be applied wholesale to 2014-14, mapping 
(divining?) pro-needs basis logic as anti-2014-14 and vice verse?  If not, 
is it all to be discounted by saying that the authors did not explicitly 
express either support or opposition and therefore we are not permitted to 
read anything into their statements?

All list posters who posted to "About needs basis in 8.3 transfers", is it 
OK to read your minds about this or do you want to come back and state 
what you mean clearly in a context that is unambiguous?

> Are there, in your opinion, any reasonable "steps" (e.g. policy
> elements) that the registry community should implement as policy between
> a buyer and a seller that are not the "existing traditional needs
> assessment" which would provide a benefit to the IPv4 market and
> Internet community as a whole?

Excellent question, such commentary would be valuable and welcome, and if 
so, what?

John Springer

> Andrew
>
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