[arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers

Thu Jun 5 19:48:29 EDT 2014

On Thu, 5 Jun 2014 16:07:21 +0000
  Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
> And your statement to me sounds like the haves trying to make it harder for the have nots, so that it is harder for the have 
>nots to compete with the haves.  The current ARIN policies are stacked against a small organization trying to compete with larger 
>ones for resources.  In my opinion that is very anti-competitive and I defy you to show me where in the ARIN mission statement et 
>al it says that that ARIN should make it harder for a small organization just starting out to get resources than larger ones.  I 
>repeat that ARIN's mission is to allocate resources and it isn't to find way not to allocate resources!!!

Personally I suspect that without needs testing the "haves" would have had it all a long time ago.

I have felt the same frustration, as a small provider, trying to meet the 80% requirement can be almost
impossible without gaming the system due to numerous small holes in a small allocation.
That said, I worry about any company that could purchase a couple of Billion dollars of IPV4.
I think I could make a stronger business case for that than some of the purchases/mergers that
have happened over the last 10 years.

I've hoped that IPV6 would eliminate that possibility but so far that hasn't happened.

I live in a place where there is very little use of much of the licensed radio spectrum.
Yet there is none available. Big players have snatched it up to keep from the others. They
use it just enough to say they did and then hundreds of miles from here.

Many of us fear that if need is not considered in the transfer market the little guys will find that
none is available at any price.

Like it or not the big guys have an advantage. Let's make sure that "cornering the market" isn't one of them.

> 
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338
> 770.656.1460 - Cell
> 770.399.9099- Office
> 
> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>                     Conquering Complex Networks℠
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 3:39 AM
> To: Steven Ryerse
> Cc: Matthew Kaufman; arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
> 
> There isn’t. But like many things in the world, sometimes it’s just easier to hire a professional. I know many small 
>organizations that have read the NRPM and applied successfully for various size allocations and/or assignments.
> 
> Your statement, to me, sounds like “If you need to hire a lawyer to form your corporation, then something is very wrong with the 
>law” or “If you need to hire a mechanic to fix your car, then something is very wrong with the design of your car.”
> 
> As a general rule, virtually anything you do in business can be done by amateurs, but is usually faster and easier if you 
>involve professionals.
> 
> Owen
> 
> On Jun 4, 2014, at 6:01 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
> 
>> No offense, but there should not be a need for any organization to have to hire a consult to try and get the Minimum size 
>>allocation.  If you need a consultant for that then something is very wrong with the policies!
>> 
>> 
>> Steven Ryerse
>> President
>> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338 
>> www.eclipse-networks.com
>> 770.656.1460 - Cell
>> 770.399.9099- Office
>> 
>> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>>                     Conquering Complex Networks℠
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 8:14 PM
>> To: Steven Ryerse
>> Cc: Matthew Kaufman; arin-ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 4, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> There are several folks (like me) who want to ditch the needs test and there are several folks who don't want to ditch them.  I 
>>>take it your position is that the folks who want to keep needs tests should somehow prevail in this argument without much or any 
>>>change,  and those of us who wish to ditch them should just accept the status quo with needs tests. In other words you win and we 
>>>lose!
>> 
>> Not necessarily. I’m open for a good debate of the issue on the merits of the proposal. I’ve attempted to stick to that.
>> 
>>> I saw a lot of folks comment here recently who want to at least loosen needs tests on the smaller block sizes, many many more 
>>>than I've ever seen before.  Since it is obvious a sizable portion of this community desires a change toward loosening policies, 
>>>why is it that you persist in standing in the way of compromise?  
>> 
>> I have not stood in the way of compromise and could not do so even if I wanted to. I am only one of 15 votes on the AC. You only 
>>need ten of them to get a policy proposal sent to the board. It is, however, equally obvious that a sizable portion of the 
>>community, not merely myself, does not want to eliminate the needs test. Currently, there is no actual proposal on the table for 
>>loosening them or compromising. If there were one, I would address the merits of it as I saw them.
>> 
>>> There comes a time when fair is fair - and small organizations are routinely discriminated against because of our small size and 
>>>not so deep pockets.  There is a lot of anger out there over the unfairness of these existing policies.  It should be just as 
>>>easy for us to get resources as it was for T-Mobile and others.  I call on all members of this community to at least come to a 
>>>compromise.  After all the world hasn't ended for RIPE with their changes - and it won't end here either if fairness is put back 
>>>into the policies so that small organizations can get the resources they need too!  
>> 
>> Given the number of sole-proprietors with very small budgets that I have obtained IP allocations for over the past several 
>>years, I think this is an inaccurate characterization of the facts at hand. Indeed, if you look at my posting history and my 
>>voting history throughout my tenure on the AC, you will find that I am one of the biggest advocates that the small organization 
>>could find.
>> 
>> It is just as easy (if not easier) for small organizations to get resources as large ones. (I know this full well because I have 
>>applied for resources for virtually every size category in the ARIN fee table).
>> 
>> If you are having trouble with a particular application, feel free to contact me off-line with the details. I may be able to 
>>help you navigate the ARIN process more effectively. We have, by the way, been making steady progress on loosening the 
>>restrictions on needs basis. There used to be no ability to get anything smaller than a /20 from ARIN for conventional uses at 
>>one time. Today, that’s down to a /24 and there is progress being made on making that possible without multihoming.
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
> 
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