[arin-ppml] support for 2014-1 (out of region use)

David Huberman David.Huberman at microsoft.com
Mon Feb 10 18:12:08 EST 2014

Yep.  The traditional anti-RIR shopping rule is unpublished.  It's a common sense rule that the RIRs applied for many years to deal with RIR shoppers and to deal with international backbones.  Once APNIC ran out, however, chaos entered into the equation.  Hence where I believe we are today.

David R Huberman
Microsoft Corporation
Senior IT/OPS Program Manager (GFS)

-----Original Message-----
From: jeffrey.lyon at gmail.com [mailto:jeffrey.lyon at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Lyon
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:06 PM
To: David Farmer
Cc: David Huberman; Milton L Mueller; ARIN PPML (ppml at arin.net)
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] support for 2014-1 (out of region use)


I am not referencing policy, but the auto-template ARIN sent me during our last resource request explicitly stated no out of region use which forced us to register as RIPE LIR for a single out of country POP.

Thanks, Jeff

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 7:56 AM, David Farmer <farmer at umn.edu> wrote:
> On 2/10/14, 15:31 , David Huberman wrote:
>>> Your second argument is that the staff already has all the tools it 
>>> needs to do what is in section X.1.
>>> This is not something the staff report said to us in its assessment, 
>>> however, so I would discount that.
>> You can discount it, but I respectfully say I'm right :)  I did do 
>> this, on the front lines, for 10 years, and Leslie and I developed 
>> ALL of the fraud protocols.
>>> You main argument, therefore is that "out-of-region requestors [are] 
>>> abusing the policies" and  "we need to draft text that significantly 
>>> and materially helps ARIN staff fight fraud from out-of-region 
>>> requestors."
>>>   Apparently you think the authorization to engage external entities 
>>> to help with verification does not address that. Can you explain 
>>> why?
>> I feel like I have in my first response.  X.1 is no-op because 
>> nothing changes.  Staff already can and do conduct these types of 
>> activities when investigating fraud.  They may not have "engaged 
>> outside entities" to help with investigation, but they've always had 
>> that purview (that is, with parties who would be under 
>> attorney-client privilege).
> For the most part I agree x.1 is basically a no-op, if you are 
> assuming that out of region use has been permitted all along.  
> However, not everyone makes that assumption.  If you make the opposite 
> assumption, that out of region use has never been permitted, then it 
> absolutely isn't a no-op, its a major policy shift.
> In my opinion, the reason we can't make any headway on dealing with 
> the issues staff has reported is the ambiguity of the status of out of 
> region use has to begin with.  Hence the problem statement put forward.
> Their are those that seem to oppose any acknowledgment of out of 
> region use all together.  And there solution to staff's issue is deny 
> all out of region use.  On the other side, we have those refuse to 
> acknowledge there can and should be any limits on out of region use.  
> Mix in those that think we shouldn't be doing anything about IPv4 
> policy at all. Then we have a quagmire that is worse than the transfer policy issues several years ago.
> Personally, I think we have to clarify out of region use before we can 
> come to any rational policy discussion that deals with the issue staff 
> has raised.  Again, hence the problem statement put forward.
> --
> ================================================
> David Farmer               Email: farmer at umn.edu
> Office of Information Technology
> University of Minnesota
> 2218 University Ave SE     Phone: 1-612-626-0815
> Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029  Cell: 1-612-812-9952 
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Jeffrey A. Lyon, CISSP-ISSMP
Founder, Black Lotus Communications
mobile: (757) 304-0668 | gtalk: jeffrey.lyon at gmail.com | skype: blacklotus.net

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