[arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use

Martin Hannigan hannigan at gmail.com
Mon Dec 15 13:41:11 EST 2014


"Needs testing" isn't actually the problem IMHO. Its not unrealistic to ask
what someone is going to use the addresses for.  Over the last five years,
policy ("the problem") has become disconnected with existing conditions and
vague allowing too much interpretation. Its impossible to know what need
actually is with the current regime.

I like the idea of not testing /24s. It solves the ambiguity problem. It
will also make them more attractive and the market more efficient by
reducing the cost of the transaction and increasing utilization of /24s
available to the market (legacy).  By utilization I mean capturing actual
registrations.

To be honest, from a market pressure perspective, what is needed _right
now_ is a sixth competitive registry. That would sort this mess out right
quick.

Best,

-M<





On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Kevin Kargel <kkargel at polartel.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> The internet is a different place now and things change and evolve over
> time.  If a modern day entrepreneur needed IP space they would have little
> or no problem finding all the IPv6 space they need at little or no cost and
> with virtually no trouble.
>
> When Jobs and Wozniak were starting up IPV4 was a different animal.
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
> <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>] *On Behalf Of *Steven Ryerse
> *Sent:* Monday, December 15, 2014 10:16 AM
> *To:* Bill Darte
> *Cc:* arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
>
>
> By that definition, I wonder if Jobs and Wozniak needed IP resources today
> for their garage - could they get them?  Whether you like what they did or
> not they certainly have advanced the Internet.  And if John and Sue are
> working in their garage today and need a /24 or a /22 from ARIN to further
> the Internet, can they get them?  With today’s policies – probably not as
> they might not have a business plan yet, or signed contract with
> contractors, or gotten their funding - or any other measure of need that is
> currently indoctrinated in policy.  What a shame!
>
>
>
>
>
> *Steven Ryerse*
>
> *President*
>
> *100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338*
>
> *www.eclipse-networks.com <http://www.eclipse-networks.com>*
>
> *770.656.1460 - Cell*
>
> *770.399.9099- Office*
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png]℠ Eclipse
> Networks, Inc.
>
>         Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Darte [mailto:billdarte at gmail.com <billdarte at gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 15, 2014 6:10 AM
> *To:* Steven Ryerse
> *Cc:* Jo Rhett; arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
>
>
> Steven Ryerse said:
>
> In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure needs based
> policies are followed, that it has lost sight of the real mission of
> advancing the Internet.  Regardless of your personal definition of need,
> why is some org who doesn't have a need (as currently defined by policy)
> now precluded from getting resources?  How does that advance the Internet?
>
>
>
> The community through ARIN is ensuring that the distribution of v4 IP
> addresses are according to its policies which have been and should continue
> to be needs-based..IMO.  They are not 'caught up' in the sense that they
> cannot proceed...ndeed, they are doing the precise business that policy and
> its mission calls for.  That some orgs that cannot meet the needs hurdle
> are denied...does not mean that others who truly have a need are not
> serviced.  Those with clear need advance the Internet and do so
> demonstrably...whereas those without a demonstrable need MAY advance the
> Internet as well, but its a greater risk to the community and one which the
> community has chosen to forgo.
>
>
>
> Bill Darte
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:17 AM, Steven Ryerse <
> SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
>
> Though it has been a few months since I made those comments, I appreciate
> your feedback.  Your description of "walk away with someone else’s
> belongings" seems to indicate that somehow the use of the Internet and the
> IP addresses that make the use of the Internet possible, is owned by ARIN
> or this Community or maybe ARIN and this Community.
>
> I find that line of thinking about as far as one can get from the spirit
> of Jon Postel and the way he went about advancing the Internet.  When I
> read the original Mission Statement for ARIN or even the current one, I
> don't see that "needs" are more important than the actual mission of
> advancement and allocation.  Good stewardship should be practiced but NOT
> to the detriment of the mission of advancement and allocation.
>
> In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure needs based
> policies are followed, that it has lost sight of the real mission of
> advancing the Internet.  Regardless of your personal definition of need,
> why is some org who doesn't have a need (as currently defined by policy)
> now precluded from getting resources?  How does that advance the Internet?
> I never met Jon Postel but from what I've heard about him, I suspect he
> would frown on some of the current policies regarding needs.  My comments
> below and others I have made are intended to try to bring some balance into
> the discussion and my hope is that some day in the near future that will
> happen.  I certainly don't desire there be no rules at all but the very
> loose rules followed by Jon Postel worked pretty well advancing the
> Internet.  I think we could loosen the current policies like has been done
> in other regions and it would have a positive outcome.  My two cents.
>
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338
> www.eclipse-networks.com
> 770.656.1460 - Cell
> 770.399.9099- Office
>
> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>                      Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jo Rhett [mailto:jrhett at netconsonance.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 12:17 AM
> To: Steven Ryerse
> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:23 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>
> wrote:
> > If in the spirit of trying to prevent fraud non-fraudulent requests get
> rejected, then Arin's mission stops being fulfilled.  I think it is
> important to make sure the mission is respected first and stopping fraud
> second or third or fifth or whatever.  We could stop all fraud by stopping
> all allocations but of course that makes no sense.  I would also point out
> that even when fraud happens Arin's Mission is still being fulfilled.
>
> I completely disagree. There are dozens if not hundreds of people with
> non-fraudulent requests who get denied for insufficient justification. That
> is ARIN doing their job successfully in my mind. If widespread fraud occurs
> and ARIN does not take action, then I feel strongly that ARIN would not be
> doing their job.
>
> > Of course maybe if the needs tests were loosened fraud would be
> significantly reduced as there would be no need to submit fraudulent
> requests.
>
> Do you mean that if it were permissible to walk away with someone else’s
> belongings, then theft would no longer occur? Your statement is true
> without making any sense at all.
>
> > I'm sure an org willing to submit a fraudulent request would tell you
> that they do have a need but they may not happen to meet the current
> arbitrary (and they are arbitrary) policy.
>
> I disagree completely. ARIN’s role is to satisfy needs-based requests.
> Exercising judgement of whether a need is realistic is doing their job.
>
> The only thing arbitrary here is your desire for there to be no rules at
> all. Deeply amusing, but not helpful for realistic policy.
>
> --
> Jo Rhett
> +1 (415) 999-1798
> Skype: jorhett
> Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and internet
> projects.
>
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