[arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use

Bill Darte billdarte at gmail.com
Mon Dec 15 13:21:12 EST 2014


Steve said:  I would point out that keeping needs testing on the smallest
size allocation is equivalent to making the decision that it is OK to not
Advance (ARIN’s mission) the Internet at the small end as the smallest orgs
have the toughest time meeting needs requirements.  If that is really the
decision this community wants to make - then in my opinion - at least it
should admit that is the decision it is making.


We certainly DO disagree on this point too....Though I think justifications
for the smallest orgs MAY in fact be more difficult...others in that
segment will likely comment....but that doesn't me NO needs test to me, but
rather a different one...if the community so chose.  Of course if the
community chooses ANY change to the existing policy of ARIN, I'm 100% on
board.


bd



On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:05 PM, Steven Ryerse <
SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
>
>  Obviously we can agree that we disagree about this, but the simple way
> to solve this problem would be to remove needs tests on the smallest
> allocation of at least a /24.
>
>
>
> I would point out that keeping needs testing on the smallest size
> allocation is equivalent to making the decision that it is OK to not
> Advance (ARIN’s mission) the Internet at the small end as the smallest orgs
> have the toughest time meeting needs requirements.  If that is really the
> decision this community wants to make - then in my opinion - at least it
> should admit that is the decision it is making.
>
>
>
> *Steven Ryerse*
>
> *President*
>
> *100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338*
>
> *770.656.1460 <770.656.1460> - Cell*
>
> *770.399.9099 <770.399.9099>- Office*
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png]℠ Eclipse
> Networks, Inc.
>
>         Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Darte [mailto:billdarte at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 15, 2014 12:30 PM
> *To:* Steven Ryerse
> *Cc:* Jo Rhett; arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
>
>
> Steve said:
>
> By that definition, I wonder if Jobs and Wozniak needed IP resources today
> for their garage - could they get them?  Whether you like what they did or
> not they certainly have advanced the Internet.  And if John and Sue are
> working in their garage today and need a /24 or a /22 from ARIN to further
> the Internet, can they get them?  With today’s policies – probably not as
> they might not have a business plan yet, or signed contract with
> contractors, or gotten their funding - or any other measure of need that is
> currently indoctrinated in policy.  What a shame!
>
>
>
> You paint a bleak and I believe obfuscating picture with your example...IF
> they NEEDED as you say a /22 or /24 they can justify it.  Without a
> business plan or signed contracts, how can one assess the stated need
> against the risk of assigning addresses to them when others more prepared
> are able to justify their need more completely.  Of course your hindsight
> example makes us all sympathetic for those wonderful entrepreneurs...but
> how do we, in real time, estimate John and Sue's entrepreneurial outcomes
> in with no information in order to give them the benefit of the doubt?  No.
> Let's keep giving out addresses to those with a business plan, contracts
> and demonstrable need.  And, of course even then...some brilliant
> entrepreneur may come one day and there will be NO v4 addresses for them or
> anyone else....that would be a shame too....That would be especially
> shameful if the community were out because of a foolish practice of giving
> out addresses to those who don't really need them.
>
>
>
> And besides...there is v6...now and in the future for the true
> entrepreneur...surely they will be able to figure out a way to use them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Steven Ryerse <
> SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
>
>  By that definition, I wonder if Jobs and Wozniak needed IP resources
> today for their garage - could they get them?  Whether you like what they
> did or not they certainly have advanced the Internet.  And if John and Sue
> are working in their garage today and need a /24 or a /22 from ARIN to
> further the Internet, can they get them?  With today’s policies – probably
> not as they might not have a business plan yet, or signed contract with
> contractors, or gotten their funding - or any other measure of need that is
> currently indoctrinated in policy.  What a shame!
>
>
>
>
>
> *Steven Ryerse*
>
> *President*
>
> *100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338*
>
> *www.eclipse-networks.com <http://www.eclipse-networks.com>*
>
> *770.656.1460 <770.656.1460> - Cell*
>
> *770.399.9099 <770.399.9099>- Office*
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks Logo_small.png]℠ Eclipse
> Networks, Inc.
>
>         Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
>
>
> *From:* Bill Darte [mailto:billdarte at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 15, 2014 6:10 AM
> *To:* Steven Ryerse
> *Cc:* Jo Rhett; arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
>
>
> Steven Ryerse said:
>
> In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure needs based
> policies are followed, that it has lost sight of the real mission of
> advancing the Internet.  Regardless of your personal definition of need,
> why is some org who doesn't have a need (as currently defined by policy)
> now precluded from getting resources?  How does that advance the Internet?
>
>
>
> The community through ARIN is ensuring that the distribution of v4 IP
> addresses are according to its policies which have been and should continue
> to be needs-based..IMO.  They are not 'caught up' in the sense that they
> cannot proceed...ndeed, they are doing the precise business that policy and
> its mission calls for.  That some orgs that cannot meet the needs hurdle
> are denied...does not mean that others who truly have a need are not
> serviced.  Those with clear need advance the Internet and do so
> demonstrably...whereas those without a demonstrable need MAY advance the
> Internet as well, but its a greater risk to the community and one which the
> community has chosen to forgo.
>
>
>
> Bill Darte
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:17 AM, Steven Ryerse <
> SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com> wrote:
>
> Though it has been a few months since I made those comments, I appreciate
> your feedback.  Your description of "walk away with someone else’s
> belongings" seems to indicate that somehow the use of the Internet and the
> IP addresses that make the use of the Internet possible, is owned by ARIN
> or this Community or maybe ARIN and this Community.
>
> I find that line of thinking about as far as one can get from the spirit
> of Jon Postel and the way he went about advancing the Internet.  When I
> read the original Mission Statement for ARIN or even the current one, I
> don't see that "needs" are more important than the actual mission of
> advancement and allocation.  Good stewardship should be practiced but NOT
> to the detriment of the mission of advancement and allocation.
>
> In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure needs based
> policies are followed, that it has lost sight of the real mission of
> advancing the Internet.  Regardless of your personal definition of need,
> why is some org who doesn't have a need (as currently defined by policy)
> now precluded from getting resources?  How does that advance the Internet?
> I never met Jon Postel but from what I've heard about him, I suspect he
> would frown on some of the current policies regarding needs.  My comments
> below and others I have made are intended to try to bring some balance into
> the discussion and my hope is that some day in the near future that will
> happen.  I certainly don't desire there be no rules at all but the very
> loose rules followed by Jon Postel worked pretty well advancing the
> Internet.  I think we could loosen the current policies like has been done
> in other regions and it would have a positive outcome.  My two cents.
>
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338
> www.eclipse-networks.com
> 770.656.1460 - Cell
> 770.399.9099- Office
>
> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>                      Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jo Rhett [mailto:jrhett at netconsonance.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 12:17 AM
> To: Steven Ryerse
> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:23 PM, Steven Ryerse <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>
> wrote:
> > If in the spirit of trying to prevent fraud non-fraudulent requests get
> rejected, then Arin's mission stops being fulfilled.  I think it is
> important to make sure the mission is respected first and stopping fraud
> second or third or fifth or whatever.  We could stop all fraud by stopping
> all allocations but of course that makes no sense.  I would also point out
> that even when fraud happens Arin's Mission is still being fulfilled.
>
> I completely disagree. There are dozens if not hundreds of people with
> non-fraudulent requests who get denied for insufficient justification. That
> is ARIN doing their job successfully in my mind. If widespread fraud occurs
> and ARIN does not take action, then I feel strongly that ARIN would not be
> doing their job.
>
> > Of course maybe if the needs tests were loosened fraud would be
> significantly reduced as there would be no need to submit fraudulent
> requests.
>
> Do you mean that if it were permissible to walk away with someone else’s
> belongings, then theft would no longer occur? Your statement is true
> without making any sense at all.
>
> > I'm sure an org willing to submit a fraudulent request would tell you
> that they do have a need but they may not happen to meet the current
> arbitrary (and they are arbitrary) policy.
>
> I disagree completely. ARIN’s role is to satisfy needs-based requests.
> Exercising judgement of whether a need is realistic is doing their job.
>
> The only thing arbitrary here is your desire for there to be no rules at
> all. Deeply amusing, but not helpful for realistic policy.
>
> --
> Jo Rhett
> +1 (415) 999-1798
> Skype: jorhett
> Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and internet
> projects.
>
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