[arin-ppml] Internet Fairness

Mon Dec 22 17:27:01 EST 2014

Didn't your mommy ever teach you that just because Europe does something 
doesn't mean you need to do it also?

You cannot have it both ways.  ARIN exists as a regulatory body.  If 
it's usefulness as a regulatory body is over then call for it's 
dissolution.  Otherwise, it's going to do what it's supposed to do which 
is to prevent the IP number space from becoming hopelessly fragmented 
and router slots from ballooning.

Europe can get away with ripe-604 precisely because a) it has no Legacy 
IPv4 and b) a lot of it has switched over to IPv6 already.  Plus there 
is a lot more regulation of NETWORKS in Europe.  Are you forgetting RIPE 
assigns IP addressing to Russia?  Are you going to argue that's now a 
free democracy with an open market now?  That just happens to have had 
the same dictat...I mean "president" for the last generation?  Please, 
stop before you embarrass yourself.

I would support a call for no needs testing on IPv6 allocations.  Of 
course once obtained then it would be the end users problem to get their 
upstream to route it.  But if more end users obtained IPv6 then it would 
increase the push on the retail networks (Frontier, RoadRunner, SBC 
CenturyLink) to have their support folks at least learn about what it is!!!

But for IPv4?  I see no reason to turn it into a free for all.

Ted

On 12/21/2014 11:41 AM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
> When the government meddles and plays favorites then capitalism stops
> working.  At the low end of allocation policy it needs to be
> capitalistic and all we need is the equivalent of the Anti-Trust laws
> in policy to keep the big guys in check.  2014-14 moves in this
> direction.  We certainly don't need Anti-Trust equivalent policies on
> the low end of allocations.
>
> Some folks here respond to me as if I'm a heretic and my input is
> radical and if implemented the world would somehow end.  I disagree.
> I have recently been advocating removing needs test just from the
> ARIN Minimum block size allocation and my proposed 2014-18 would have
> done that.  A proposal to do a whole lot more than I have proposed -
> not only has been proposed in the RIPE region - but tweaked,
> improved, and passed - as ripe-604.  Are the folks who proposed and
> voted to pass ripe-604 heretics too?  I think not.  I think they
> realized that needs testing couldn't save IPv4 and wanted to level
> the playing field so they passed ripe-604. The world has not ended in
> Europe because of it.
>
> I think we need an ARIN equivalent of ripe-604 but I figured that I
> would start at the low end where I think small Orgs would benefit
> just trying to remove the needs testing for Orgs who just need the
> minimum and don't need a minimum block more than once per year.  This
> would be a pretty small change to current policy and if advocating
> for that makes me a heretic then so be it!  My two cents.
>
> Steven L Ryerse President 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110,
> Atlanta, GA  30338 770.656.1460 - Cell 770.399.9099 - Office
> 770.392-0076 - Fax
>
> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc. Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Ted Mittelstaedt
> [mailto:tedm at ipinc.net] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:09 AM To:
> Steven Ryerse Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-ppml]
> Internet Fairness
>
>
> Your not talking about a Capitalistic model your talking about a
> Laissez-faire model.  While this might make some Libertarians have
> wet dreams it is a recipe for anarchy which is why no economy on
> Earth operates this way.
>
> What is generally understood about Capitalism today is that the
> catch-22 of Capitalism is that if you have a market that is
> completely controlled by the government, that is the opposite of
> Capitalism - but if you have a market that has zero government
> controls it immediately devolves into a set of monopolies which are
> also the opposite of Capitalism.
>
> In short, the cost of real economic freedom is constant government
> tinkering.
>
> I realize it's difficult to understand for a lot of people.  The Tea
> Party in the United States is filled with people who don't understand
> it.
>
> ARIN resource allocations are as close to Capitalism today as we are
> going to get.  Once the transfer market was approved, that ended the
> last vestige of authoritarian control by ARIN.
>
> The needs testing is far less intrusive than government controls on
> automobiles, yet nobody would argue today the US does not have
> competition in the automobile market.
>
> Ted
>
> On 12/19/2014 3:59 PM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
>> I'm not being ignorant I am trying to get to bottom of the
>> discussion.  I wish ARINs resources were issued by ARIN in a
>> capitalistic manner.  Then as long as an Org is willing to pay the
>> going rate resources could be acquired guaranteed as long as there
>> are sellers.  There is no needs testing in that model just supply
>> and demand and the ability to pay.  How do we change to the
>> Capitalistic model from what we got now?
>>
>> Steven L Ryerse President 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110,
>> Atlanta, GA  30338 770.656.1460 - Cell 770.399.9099 - Office
>> 770.392-0076 - Fax
>>
>> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc. Conquering Complex Networks℠
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>> [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt
>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 11:23 AM To: arin-ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
>>
>> First point here Steven is you have completely ignored and failed
>> to respond to my first comment regarding why ARIN is the way it is
>> - because it exists in a capitalistic society - because you have no
>> answer for that.
>>
>> I do not really believe for a second that you really want an honest
>> debate on this issue.  What you are doing is sitting back and
>> cherry picking weak arguments to respond to, and ignoring strong
>> ones.  So I am not going to waste much more time with you on this.
>>
>> But I will say that your comment:
>>
>> " If .com domain names were nearing runout, would that really make
>> it OK to start denying small Orgs .com domain name requests?"
>>
>> is one of the most ignorant I've seen on this list in quite a
>> while.
>>
>> The DNS system exists to make IP addresses that are hard to
>> remember, replaced by domain names that are easy to remember.  The
>> average English speaking adult knows about 50,000 English words.
>> There's over 100 million .com domain names registered at this
>> point.  We have far and away exceeded the number of English .com
>> one word domain names that an average person would know.
>>
>> Therefore we have long ago "run out" of .com domain names.  Oh
>> sure, you can still register new .com domain names that are
>> nonsense like fdgcjghhgeafvrar.com or you can make up elaborate
>> long sentences like thisismynewdomainanemisntitkewel.com and
>> register those names, but neither of those meets the bar of being
>> an easy to remember name.  They are, in fact, harder to remember
>> than the IP addresses that they are supposed to make "easy to
>> remember"
>>
>> There
>>
>> On 12/18/2014 9:15 AM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
>>> Thanks for your comments!  Actually the total number of possible
>>> .com permutations is limited too.  IPv4 addresses and .com domain
>>> names are both just Internet resources that Internet users need
>>> to use the Internet.  Obviously there are less IPv4 addresses
>>> than .com combinations, but IPv4 is still the only way to access
>>> most of the Internet.  While ARIN has resources to allocate - I'm
>>> absolutely fine limiting the size of an allocation to match the
>>> size of an Org and their network, but I'm not fine with denying
>>> an Org any resources.
>>>
>>> Also IPv4 cannot somehow be saved by conservation.  Regardless of
>>> any policy, ARIN will run out of IPv4 probably within the next
>>> year.  If .com domain names were nearing runout, would that
>>> really make it OK to start denying small Orgs .com domain name
>>> requests?
>>>
>>> Steven Ryerse President 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110,
>>> Atlanta, GA  30338 770.656.1460 - Cell 770.399.9099- Office
>>>
>>> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc. Conquering Complex Networks℠
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
>>> [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:59 AM To:
>>> arin-ppml at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 04:35:41PM +0000, Steven Ryerse wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If it is not OK to deny the Minimum domain (available) name to
>>>> an Org, then it isn’t OK to deny an Org the Minimum  IP
>>>> allocation.  They are both Internet resources.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The analogy seems faulty to me.  The number space is finite (and
>>> in the case of v4, not very large).  The name space in any given
>>> registry is admittedly not infinite, since (1) it's limited to
>>> labels 63 octets long from the LDH repertoire and (2) useful
>>> mnemonics are generally shorter than 63 octets and usually a
>>> wordlike thing in some natural language.  There are, however,
>>> lots of registries (more all the time! Thanks, ICANN!); and last
>>> I checked neither info nor biz was anything close to the size (or
>>> utility) of com, even though they've both been around since 2001
>>> and have rather similar registration rules.  So, there is an
>>> argument in favour of tight rules for allocation of v4 numbers
>>> that is not available in the name case.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> A
>>>
>>> -- Andrew Sullivan ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
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