[arin-ppml] Internet Fairness

Matthew Kaufman matthew at matthew.at
Sat Dec 20 19:28:38 EST 2014 

A large company can already lock up all the IP space it wants outside of the transfer policy, through rights of first refusal, purchase lock-ins, leasing, or any combination of things, depending on whether or not they need to use some of it in the interim. (And rumor is that some/all of some /8s are already locked up this way)... 

But since nobody has called me to lock up my space for future transfer, I can only assume they whoever might speculatively do this either missed me or doesn't exist, most likely the latter.

Allowing the transactions to become recorded transfers has zero bearing on your concerns below, though does (in the case of leading) make it easier to see who is really using the space.

Matthew Kaufman

(Sent from my iPhone)

> On Dec 19, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Randy Carpenter <rcarpen at network1.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> A capitalistic model does not work for a finite resource like IP addresses. All that would happen is that a large company could just buy up all of the space, and then set its own price for everyone else. How's that for "fairness" ?? I don't see how you can argue for treating smaller orgs more fairly by proposing to allow large companies to set whatever ridiculous price they want.
> 
> I still don't get the needs argument at all. If an org can't show that it needs the addresses, then why do they need the addresses?
> 
> I agree that in the past it was difficult for small non-multihomed orgs to get space. But now that the minimum is a /24, it is so ridiculously easy.
> 
> -Randy
> 
> ----- On Dec 19, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Steven Ryerse SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com wrote:
> 
>> I'm not being ignorant I am trying to get to bottom of the discussion.  I wish
>> ARINs resources were issued by ARIN in a capitalistic manner.  Then as long as
>> an Org is willing to pay the going rate resources could be acquired guaranteed
>> as long as there are sellers.  There is no needs testing in that model just
>> supply and demand and the ability to pay.  How do we change to the Capitalistic
>> model from what we got now?
>> 
>> Steven L Ryerse
>> President
>> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338
>> 770.656.1460 - Cell
>> 770.399.9099 - Office
>> 770.392-0076 - Fax
>> 
>> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>>                    Conquering Complex Networks℠
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf
>> Of Ted Mittelstaedt
>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 11:23 AM
>> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
>> 
>> First point here Steven is you have completely ignored and failed to respond to
>> my first comment regarding why ARIN is the way it is - because it exists in a
>> capitalistic society - because you have no answer for that.
>> 
>> I do not really believe for a second that you really want an honest debate on
>> this issue.  What you are doing is sitting back and cherry picking weak
>> arguments to respond to, and ignoring strong ones.  So I am not going to waste
>> much more time with you on this.
>> 
>> But I will say that your comment:
>> 
>> " If .com domain names were nearing runout, would that really make it OK to
>> start denying small Orgs .com domain name requests?"
>> 
>> is one of the most ignorant I've seen on this list in quite a while.
>> 
>> The DNS system exists to make IP addresses that are hard to remember, replaced
>> by domain names that are easy to remember.  The average English speaking adult
>> knows about 50,000 English words.  There's over 100 million .com domain names
>> registered at this point.  We have far and away exceeded the number of English
>> .com one word domain names that an average person would know.
>> 
>> Therefore we have long ago "run out" of .com domain names.  Oh sure, you can
>> still register new .com domain names that are nonsense like
>> fdgcjghhgeafvrar.com or you can make up elaborate long sentences like
>> thisismynewdomainanemisntitkewel.com and register those names, but neither of
>> those meets the bar of being an easy to remember name.  They are, in fact,
>> harder to remember than the IP addresses that they are supposed to make "easy
>> to remember"
>> 
>> There
>> 
>>> On 12/18/2014 9:15 AM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
>>> Thanks for your comments!  Actually the total number of possible .com
>>> permutations is limited too.  IPv4 addresses and .com domain names are both
>>> just Internet resources that Internet users need to use the Internet.
>>> Obviously there are less IPv4 addresses than .com combinations, but IPv4 is
>>> still the only way to access most of the Internet.  While ARIN has resources to
>>> allocate - I'm absolutely fine limiting the size of an allocation to match the
>>> size of an Org and their network, but I'm not fine with denying an Org any
>>> resources.
>>> 
>>> Also IPv4 cannot somehow be saved by conservation.  Regardless of any policy,
>>> ARIN will run out of IPv4 probably within the next year.  If .com domain names
>>> were nearing runout, would that really make it OK to start denying small Orgs
>>> .com domain name requests?
>>> 
>>> Steven Ryerse
>>> President
>>> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA  30338
>>> 770.656.1460 - Cell
>>> 770.399.9099- Office
>>> 
>>> ℠ Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>>>                      Conquering Complex Networks℠
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf
>>> Of Andrew Sullivan
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:59 AM
>>> To: arin-ppml at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Internet Fairness
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 04:35:41PM +0000, Steven Ryerse wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> If it is not OK to deny the Minimum domain (available) name to an Org, then it
>>>> isn’t OK to deny an Org the Minimum  IP allocation.  They are both Internet
>>>> resources.
>>> 
>>> The analogy seems faulty to me.  The number space is finite (and in the case of
>>> v4, not very large).  The name space in any given registry is admittedly not
>>> infinite, since (1) it's limited to labels 63 octets long from the LDH
>>> repertoire and (2) useful mnemonics are generally shorter than 63 octets and
>>> usually a wordlike thing in some natural language.  There are, however, lots of
>>> registries (more all the time!
>>> Thanks, ICANN!); and last I checked neither info nor biz was anything close to
>>> the size (or utility) of com, even though they've both been around since 2001
>>> and have rather similar registration rules.  So, there is an argument in favour
>>> of tight rules for allocation of v4 numbers that is not available in the name
>>> case.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> A
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Andrew Sullivan
>>> ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
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