[arin-ppml] Use
Ted Mittelstaedt
tedm at ipinc.net
Wed Dec 17 13:08:41 EST 2014
Hi Steven,
That was my experience like over a decade ago - except that I was not
applying for IPv6 just IPv4 - of course back in those days we didn't
call it IPv4 we just called it IP - I called ARIN - talked to them -
answered a few more questions the hostmaster had - and the No turned
into a Yes.
I can't get too excited about someone who submitted a webform, got
denied, then said "oh well" and never pursued it any further. Which is
what your story here says what happened. In a shortage market I would
expect more of an effort from a requestor to obtain something than just
clicking Submit on a webform. At the very least, a phone call.
Today if I had to do it over again and got a No, I'd probably be
buying a plane ticket and visiting ARIN's offices.
The reality is we are out of IPv4. Assigning more of it isn't
advancing the Internet. Assigning IPv6 IS advancing the Internet.
People can get IPv4 from their upstreams. Yes it will cost and yes it
will make it harder to renumber. That is the price that you have to pay
in a market with severe shortages. That's why we pay $3-$4 a gallon for
gasoline.
If you did indeed do anything further then please elaborate - right
now I can only judge by what you have said in your story - and it's just
not very compelling.
Ted
On 12/16/2014 10:10 AM, Steven Ryerse wrote:
> My experience was that I applied to ARIN for a /32 IPv6 block, a /22
> IPv4 block (the minimum at the time), and an ASN number. The online
> application asked me some questions which I answered. Once it was
> processed I was notified that the IPv6 block and the ASN number were
> allocated to me, and the IPv4 block allocation was denied. This was
> about 3 years ago and at the time I thought the questions I was asked
> were reasonable. I don’t recall having to provide anything else except
> maybe a bill from my upstream provider.
>
> I don’t have an issue with asking an applicant some basic questions but
> I have a strong issue with using the answers to those questions to deny
> an applicant the minimum block size. Regardless of the original intent,
> the effect is the haves keeping the have nots from getting resources and
> this falls squarely on small organizations. My opinion.
>
> /Steven L Ryerse/
>
> /President/
>
> /100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338/
>
> /770.656.1460 - Cell/
>
> /770.399.9099 - Office/
>
> /770.392-0076 - Fax/
>
> Description: Description: Description: Eclipse Networks
> Logo_small.png℠Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>
> ^Conquering Complex Networks ^℠ ^
>
> *From:*Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, December 15, 2014 9:08 PM
> *To:* Steven Ryerse
> *Cc:* Kevin Kargel; arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> My point is that even before that discussion, there was and always has
> been needs testing for IPv6.
>
> Your claim that what they were advocating for is something new, as if
> IPv6 wasn't already subject to needs testing is specious.
>
> As such, I'm not sure what would cause you to want to scream.
>
> Owen
>
> On Dec 15, 2014, at 14:21 , Steven Ryerse
> <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com <mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>>
> wrote:
>
> No, my request for a IPv6 /32 was fulfilled by ARIN. My IPv6 comment
> below was concerning discussion of a policy proposal for a past
> proposal.
>
> /Steven Ryerse/
>
> /President/
>
> /100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338/
>
> /770.656.1460 - Cell/
>
> /770.399.9099- Office/
>
> <image001.jpg>℠Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>
> ^Conquering Complex Networks ^℠
>
> *From:*Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
> *Sent:*Monday, December 15, 2014 5:14 PM
> *To:*Steven Ryerse
> *Cc:*Kevin Kargel; arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Subject:*Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> We have always had and still do have needs testing on all IPv6
> allocations and assignments.
>
> Do you know anyone who is having trouble getting the IPv6 space that
> they need?
>
> Owen
>
> On Dec 15, 2014, at 10:49 , Steven Ryerse
> <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com
> <mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>> wrote:
>
> I saw folks in this Community when discussing a policy proposal
> earlier this year – advocating for needs testing on all IPv6
> allocations. I wanted to scream when I read it!
>
> As far as the Internet being different today, ARINs Mission
> doesn’t go out the window because of Internet changes.
>
> /Steven Ryerse/
>
> /President/
>
> /100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338/
>
> /770.656.1460 - Cell/
>
> /770.399.9099- Office/
>
> <image001.jpg>℠Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>
> ^Conquering Complex Networks ^℠
>
> *From:*arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>[mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net]*On
> Behalf Of*Kevin Kargel
> *Sent:*Monday, December 15, 2014 1:12 PM
> *To:*arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Subject:*[arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> The internet is a different place now and things change and
> evolve over time. If a modern day entrepreneur needed IP space
> they would have little or no problem finding all the IPv6 space
> they need at little or no cost and with virtually no trouble.
>
> When Jobs and Wozniak were starting up IPV4 was a different animal.
>
> Kevin
>
> *From:*arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
> <mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net>[mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net]*On
> Behalf Of*Steven Ryerse
> *Sent:*Monday, December 15, 2014 10:16 AM
> *To:*Bill Darte
> *Cc:*arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Subject:*Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> By that definition, I wonder if Jobs and Wozniak needed IP
> resources today for their garage - could they get them? Whether
> you like what they did or not they certainly have advanced the
> Internet. And if John and Sue are working in their garage today
> and need a /24 or a /22 from ARIN to further the Internet, can
> they get them? With today’s policies – probably not as they
> might not have a business plan yet, or signed contract with
> contractors, or gotten their funding - or any other measure of
> need that is currently indoctrinated in policy. What a shame!
>
> //
>
> /Steven Ryerse/
>
> /President/
>
> /100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338/
>
> /www.eclipse-networks.com <http://www.eclipse-networks.com/>/
>
> /770.656.1460 - Cell/
>
> /770.399.9099- Office/
>
> <image001.jpg>℠Eclipse Networks, Inc.
>
> ^Conquering Complex Networks ^℠
>
> *From:*Bill Darte [mailto:billdarte at gmail.com]
> *Sent:*Monday, December 15, 2014 6:10 AM
> *To:*Steven Ryerse
> *Cc:*Jo Rhett;arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
> *Subject:*Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> Steven Ryerse said:
>
> In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure
> needs based policies are followed, that it has lost sight of the
> real mission of advancing the Internet. Regardless of your
> personal definition of need, why is some org who doesn't have a
> need (as currently defined by policy) now precluded from getting
> resources? How does that advance the Internet?
>
> The community through ARIN is ensuring that the distribution of
> v4 IP addresses are according to its policies which have been
> and should continue to be needs-based..IMO. They are not 'caught
> up' in the sense that they cannot proceed...ndeed, they are
> doing the precise business that policy and its mission calls
> for. That some orgs that cannot meet the needs hurdle are
> denied...does not mean that others who truly have a need are not
> serviced. Those with clear need advance the Internet and do so
> demonstrably...whereas those without a demonstrable need MAY
> advance the Internet as well, but its a greater risk to the
> community and one which the community has chosen to forgo.
>
> Bill Darte
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:17 AM, Steven Ryerse
> <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com
> <mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>> wrote:
>
> Though it has been a few months since I made those comments,
> I appreciate your feedback. Your description of "walk away
> with someone else’s belongings" seems to indicate that
> somehow the use of the Internet and the IP addresses that
> make the use of the Internet possible, is owned by ARIN or
> this Community or maybe ARIN and this Community.
>
> I find that line of thinking about as far as one can get
> from the spirit of Jon Postel and the way he went about
> advancing the Internet. When I read the original Mission
> Statement for ARIN or even the current one, I don't see that
> "needs" are more important than the actual mission of
> advancement and allocation. Good stewardship should be
> practiced but NOT to the detriment of the mission of
> advancement and allocation.
>
> In my opinion this community is so caught up in making sure
> needs based policies are followed, that it has lost sight of
> the real mission of advancing the Internet. Regardless of
> your personal definition of need, why is some org who
> doesn't have a need (as currently defined by policy) now
> precluded from getting resources? How does that advance the
> Internet? I never met Jon Postel but from what I've heard
> about him, I suspect he would frown on some of the current
> policies regarding needs. My comments below and others I
> have made are intended to try to bring some balance into the
> discussion and my hope is that some day in the near future
> that will happen. I certainly don't desire there be no rules
> at all but the very loose rules followed by Jon Postel
> worked pretty well advancing the Internet. I think we could
> loosen the current policies like has been done in other
> regions and it would have a positive outcome. My two cents.
>
> Steven Ryerse
> President
> 100 Ashford Center North, Suite 110, Atlanta, GA 30338
> www.eclipse-networks.com <http://www.eclipse-networks.com/>
> 770.656.1460 <tel:770.656.1460> - Cell
> 770.399.9099 <tel:770.399.9099>- Office
>
> ℠Eclipse Networks, Inc.
> Conquering Complex Networks℠
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jo Rhett [mailto:jrhett at netconsonance.com
> <mailto:jrhett at netconsonance.com>]
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 12:17 AM
> To: Steven Ryerse
> Cc:arin-ppml at arin.net <mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] 2014-1 Out of Region Use
>
> On Oct 27, 2014, at 5:23 PM, Steven Ryerse
> <SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com
> <mailto:SRyerse at eclipse-networks.com>> wrote:
> > If in the spirit of trying to prevent fraud
> non-fraudulent requests get rejected, then Arin's mission
> stops being fulfilled. I think it is important to make sure
> the mission is respected first and stopping fraud second or
> third or fifth or whatever. We could stop all fraud by
> stopping all allocations but of course that makes no sense.
> I would also point out that even when fraud happens Arin's
> Mission is still being fulfilled.
>
> I completely disagree. There are dozens if not hundreds of
> people with non-fraudulent requests who get denied for
> insufficient justification. That is ARIN doing their job
> successfully in my mind. If widespread fraud occurs and ARIN
> does not take action, then I feel strongly that ARIN would
> not be doing their job.
>
> > Of course maybe if the needs tests were loosened fraud
> would be significantly reduced as there would be no need to
> submit fraudulent requests.
>
> Do you mean that if it were permissible to walk away with
> someone else’s belongings, then theft would no longer occur?
> Your statement is true without making any sense at all.
>
> > I'm sure an org willing to submit a fraudulent request
> would tell you that they do have a need but they may not
> happen to meet the current arbitrary (and they are
> arbitrary) policy.
>
> I disagree completely. ARIN’s role is to satisfy needs-based
> requests. Exercising judgement of whether a need is
> realistic is doing their job.
>
> The only thing arbitrary here is your desire for there to be
> no rules at all. Deeply amusing, but not helpful for
> realistic policy.
>
> --
> Jo Rhett
> +1 (415) 999-1798 <tel:%2B1%20%28415%29%20999-1798>
> Skype: jorhett
> Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and
> internet projects.
>
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