[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8

Fri Apr 4 10:31:25 EDT 2014

ARIN is a registry, not a regulator.  The more you guys want to

build in rules that are anti-competitive and blind to the market

reality, the more inaccurate Whois gets.

Upon v4 exhaustion, we should remove needs basis from

transfers, remove the RSA text that makes the signer disclaim

property rights, and motivate registrants to keep Whois accurate

so that network operators can get good information about their

traffic.

David R Huberman
Microsoft Corporation
Senior IT/OPS Program Manager (GFS)
________________________________
From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net <arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of Kevin Kargel <kkargel at polartel.com>
Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 6:56 AM
To: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8

I guess I am confused.  I thought that resources assigned to entities that no longer exist should be reclaimed to the pool.
Kevin

From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 8:25 PM
To: Rocky
Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8

Rocky,

Many such 8.2 transfers are efforts to get ARIN's records up to date regarding M&A transactions that happened years ago. It is not possible for a no-longer-existent entity to execute the 8.3 transfer, so it has to be 8.2 transferred to the new entity first.
Scott

On Apr 3, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Rocky <rockymm8 at gmail.com<mailto:rockymm8 at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hello there,

What you are planning to do  seems  like you try to disguise an 8.3 transfer as an 8.2 transfer.

I do not think it is appropriate for  allowing an 8.2 transfer followed by an 8.3/8.4 transfer.

If the company does not need the IPv4 and the IPv4 are lack of utilisation,   why not ask this company to return the IPv4 for the benefit of the community?

If the company wants to sell the IPv4 after an 8.2 to buyers through an 8.3/8.4,  why not the company directly transfer the IPv4 from its original organisation instead of  doing  an 8.2 first then followed by an 8.3/8.4 transfer.   Are the seller  trying to hide something or as the seller is afraid of doing something against the policy, so they try to make such an arrangement?

There is a highly suspicious of “ IPv4 laundry” or “IPv4 speculation”  about this company.     Maybe we need more transparency of the buy&sale of the IPv4 to make sure the behaviour of the seller is compatible with  policy.

I suggest to resolve the language conflict between 8.2 transfer policy and RSA and further to suggest to figure out some measures to stop the  speculation on IPv4  via an 8.2 then followed by an 8.3/8.4 transfer.      If the company does not use the IPv4 after an 8.2 transfer, why not return them to free pool for the benefit of the whole community?

Any ideas on this ?

On Friday, April 4, 2014 at 7:43 AM, arin-ppml-request at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml-request at arin.net> wrote:
Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..."

Today's Topics:

1. Re: ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 7 (Chris R. Squatritto)
2. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (John Curran)
3. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (Milton L Mueller)
4. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (xiaofan yang)
5. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (xiaofan yang)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:30:45 -0700
From: "Chris R. Squatritto" <csquat at ccsd.net<mailto:csquat at ccsd.net>>
To: arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 7
Message-ID:
<fc.004c4e074f3bba733b9aca00e3f873db.4f3bba74 at interact.ccsd.net<mailto:fc.004c4e074f3bba733b9aca00e3f873db.4f3bba74 at interact.ccsd.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I am out of the office this week and will not be checking email. Please
contact Troy Miller for assistance..

Thank you for contacting me, and have a great day.

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:59:20 +0000
From: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:jcurran at arin.net>>
To: xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com<mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com>>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
Message-ID: <6BBC9339-AE30-446A-8406-8237A8C3477F at arin.net<mailto:6BBC9339-AE30-446A-8406-8237A8C3477F at arin.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Apr 2, 2014, at 4:27 PM, xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com<mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi John,

I have further enquiry about ARIN 8.2 process.

Number one:I am also worried about the costs of doing a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer. I wonder if I will have to involve the legal help to deal with ARIN legal. In my case I bought a company that now is out of business. How complicated does ARIN make this process? I want some assurance that I will be treated equally to any other companies whether it is a big company or a small company like us.

Niki -

You will be treated equally, but in truth I'm not certain that is actually what you want...
(for example, a process which seems routine for a large organization could still pose
a disproportionate burden to a smaller organization since organization size is not a
factor in the verification process.)

The first and foremost activity is to make sure that we have your organization registered
as the rightful address holder, and that will require an NRPM 8.2 transfer. It can actually
be relatively straightforward process, as long as you have clear documentation of the
purchase of the company. Review the instructions here for additional information about
what is accepted - <https://www.arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_2.html>

Number two: If we do a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer, will the stated purpose for our number resources remains the same?? I am afraid of that ARIN will not approve our transfer.

If you are the clear party with the rights after your purchase, ARIN will approve your
transfer. We may note that you have more addresses than you now need, and thus
we expect you to return or transfer the remainder (but that would seem to line up with
your intentions in any case.)

If you have purchased a company without adequate documentation, or if multiple
parties purchased multiple pieces of the company, or if there some question about
what was purchased based on the documentation, then it can be more challenging
to get the resources appropriately listed with you as the rightful holder. You will need
to apply for the transfer and work with the ARIN Hostmaster to determine if there is
any issue in your particular case.

Number three: As we have bought the company, do we have the property right on those IPs? in our past agreement and future agreement arranged for 8.3, we would like to have some kinds of property right on those IPs, will that conflict with ARIN policy?

Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of rights to the
address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services agreement that
you enter with ARIN), and these rights include:

(1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database;
(2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database; and
(3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number Resources pursuant to the Policies.

ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of property rights
in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage the address blocks
in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have other beliefs
with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice.

I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any additional questions.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 15:33:13 +0000
From: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu<mailto:mueller at syr.edu>>
To: "'John Curran'" <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:jcurran at arin.net>>, xiaofan yang
<nikiyangxf at gmail.com<mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com>>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
Message-ID: <1846d87fe7164f22a7c63e9d1fed321e at EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu<mailto:1846d87fe7164f22a7c63e9d1fed321e at EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Niki:
For most economists and lawyers, the definition of a "property right" involves the right to use, the right to exclude others from using, and the right to transfer. As John's message makes clear, all those rights are present in the number block lease you get from ARIN. So although the RSA makes you formally declaim a property right, what you are getting from the RSA is a bundle of rights that for all practical purposes has the same economic features as a property right.

-----Original Message-----

Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of rights to the address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services agreement that you enter with ARIN), and these rights include:

(1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database;
(2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database; and
(3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number Resources pursuant to the Policies.

ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of property rights in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage the address blocks in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have other beliefs with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice.

I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any additional questions.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:33:04 +0800
From: xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com<mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com>>
To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:jcurran at arin.net>>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
Message-ID:
<CAPhL6MpzKW1q2Cw9+SfZ+hap6ecwns6JzdBEp+xvK8dF7VMwxg at mail.gmail.com<mailto:CAPhL6MpzKW1q2Cw9+SfZ+hap6ecwns6JzdBEp+xvK8dF7VMwxg at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi John,

In basis of your reply, if the block is underutilised,ARIN will either ask
the company to return the IPs or transfer to other third party via 8.3
transfer after our 8.2 transfer.

Say we have two /16 after this 8.2 transfer, what if we only transfer one
/16 to the other third party via 8.3 transfer, meanwhile, we keep the
other /16 left unused after our 8.2 transfer for quiet a while. Will ARIN
ask us to return the remained /16 to the free pool? furthmore, how long
will ARIN allow us to keep the other /16 unused before we transfer it to
the third party via 8.3 transfer ?

Niki

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 7:59 AM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:jcurran at arin.net>> wrote:

On Apr 2, 2014, at 4:27 PM, xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com<mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi John,

I have further enquiry about ARIN 8.2 process.

Number one:I am also worried about the costs of doing a 8.2 transfer
followed by a 8.3 transfer. I wonder if I will have to involve the legal
help to deal with ARIN legal. In my case I bought a company that now is
out of business. How complicated does ARIN make this process? I want some
assurance that I will be treated equally to any other companies whether it
is a big company or a small company like us.

Niki -

You will be treated equally, but in truth I'm not certain that is actually
what you want...
(for example, a process which seems routine for a large organization could
still pose
a disproportionate burden to a smaller organization since organization
size is not a
factor in the verification process.)

The first and foremost activity is to make sure that we have your
organization registered
as the rightful address holder, and that will require an NRPM 8.2
transfer. It can actually
be relatively straightforward process, as long as you have clear
documentation of the
purchase of the company. Review the instructions here for additional
information about
what is accepted - <
https://www.arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_2.html>

Number two: If we do a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer, will
the stated purpose for our number resources remains the same?? I am afraid
of that ARIN will not approve our transfer.

If you are the clear party with the rights after your purchase, ARIN will
approve your
transfer. We may note that you have more addresses than you now need, and
thus
we expect you to return or transfer the remainder (but that would seem to
line up with
your intentions in any case.)

If you have purchased a company without adequate documentation, or if
multiple
parties purchased multiple pieces of the company, or if there some
question about
what was purchased based on the documentation, then it can be more
challenging
to get the resources appropriately listed with you as the rightful holder.
You will need
to apply for the transfer and work with the ARIN Hostmaster to determine
if there is
any issue in your particular case.

Number three: As we have bought the company, do we have the property
right on those IPs? in our past agreement and future agreement arranged
for 8.3, we would like to have some kinds of property right on those IPs,
will that conflict with ARIN policy?

Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of
rights to the
address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services
agreement that
you enter with ARIN), and these rights include:

(1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number
Resources within the ARIN database;
(2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN
database; and
(3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number
Resources pursuant to the Policies.

ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of
property rights
in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage
the address blocks
in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have
other beliefs
with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to
seek legal advice.

I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any
additional questions.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:43:43 +0800
From: xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com<mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com>>
To: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu<mailto:mueller at syr.edu>>
Cc: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net<mailto:jcurran at arin.net>>, "arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>"
<arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
Message-ID:
<CAPhL6MrQdn-=5g8ZKSntVpVca7pRrwuWLxCAiTrgv2d672wX3A at mail.gmail.com<mailto:5g8ZKSntVpVca7pRrwuWLxCAiTrgv2d672wX3A at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Milton,

thanks for your inspiring reply. Now i know that we have the "ownership"
of those IPs. as you are one of the AC, i take your reply seriously and
also this is good news for the community, especially for those legacy
holders, if the holder of ARIN non-legacy IPs can have the "ownership'
then the holder of legacy IPs definitely has the ownership on their IPs
no matter whether they sign the RSA , LRSA or not.

Hope ARIN will not impose unpredictable "restrictions" when legacy or
non-legacy holder begins its transfer request. Moreover, when ARIN reject
a transfer , hope ARIN will not use the "confidential terms" as an excuse
for not reply communities' questions in ppml. or ARIN will reply with
bunch of info mean nothing.
Niki

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:33 PM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu<mailto:mueller at syr.edu>> wrote:

Niki:
For most economists and lawyers, the definition of a "property right"
involves the right to use, the right to exclude others from using, and the
right to transfer. As John's message makes clear, all those rights are
present in the number block lease you get from ARIN. So although the RSA
makes you formally declaim a property right, what you are getting from the
RSA is a bundle of rights that for all practical purposes has the same
economic features as a property right.

-----Original Message-----

Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of
rights to the address blocks in the registry (as defined by the
registration services agreement that you enter with ARIN), and these rights
include:

(1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number
Resources within the ARIN database;
(2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN
database; and
(3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number
Resources pursuant to the Policies.

ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of
property rights in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the
ability to manage the address blocks in accordance with community-developed
policy in the region. If you have other beliefs with respect to your
rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice.

I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any
additional questions.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
ARIN

_______________________________________________
PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net<mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8
*****************************************

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