[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 10
Rocky
rockymm8 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 3 23:04:30 EDT 2014
Scott
thanks for your explanation.
1. how can ARIN make sure this 8.2 transfer is not speculating about IPv4?
2. if the entity no longer existent, why not return the IPv4 after its dissolved? or why not update the ARIN database in time after the M/A. What you are trying to say make me feel that ARIN policy is encouraging the stockpile of IPv4— some People do it until the IPv4 becomes expensive and some people can benefit huge from its stockpile ( for past many years) by update its registration info via 8.2 transfer to sell a great price after the next 8.3 transfer.
the check of utilisation rate under 8.2 is just a formalism and considering the wording there conflicts with RSA, why not delete the utilisation rate requirement in the 8.2? or revise the RSA accordingly.
Rocky
On Friday, April 4, 2014 at 9:25 AM, arin-ppml-request at arin.net wrote:
> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8 (Scott Leibrand)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 18:25:06 -0700
> From: Scott Leibrand <scottleibrand at gmail.com (mailto:scottleibrand at gmail.com)>
> To: Rocky <rockymm8 at gmail.com (mailto:rockymm8 at gmail.com)>
> Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8
> Message-ID: <04DC25C4-5352-4DC8-A114-EA1724DC88EE at gmail.com (mailto:04DC25C4-5352-4DC8-A114-EA1724DC88EE at gmail.com)>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Rocky,
>
> Many such 8.2 transfers are efforts to get ARIN's records up to date regarding M&A transactions that happened years ago. It is not possible for a no-longer-existent entity to execute the 8.3 transfer, so it has to be 8.2 transferred to the new entity first.
>
> Scott
>
> > On Apr 3, 2014, at 6:02 PM, Rocky <rockymm8 at gmail.com (mailto:rockymm8 at gmail.com)> wrote:
> >
> > Hello there,
> >
> > What you are planning to do seems like you try to disguise an 8.3 transfer as an 8.2 transfer.
> > I do not think it is appropriate for allowing an 8.2 transfer followed by an 8.3/8.4 transfer.
> >
> > If the company does not need the IPv4 and the IPv4 are lack of utilisation, why not ask this company to return the IPv4 for the benefit of the community?
> >
> > If the company wants to sell the IPv4 after an 8.2 to buyers through an 8.3/8.4, why not the company directly transfer the IPv4 from its original organisation instead of doing an 8.2 first then followed by an 8.3/8.4 transfer. Are the seller trying to hide something or as the seller is afraid of doing something against the policy, so they try to make such an arrangement?
> >
> > There is a highly suspicious of ? IPv4 laundry? or ?IPv4 speculation? about this company. Maybe we need more transparency of the buy&sale of the IPv4 to make sure the behaviour of the seller is compatible with policy.
> >
> > I suggest to resolve the language conflict between 8.2 transfer policy and RSA and further to suggest to figure out some measures to stop the speculation on IPv4 via an 8.2 then followed by an 8.3/8.4 transfer. If the company does not use the IPv4 after an 8.2 transfer, why not return them to free pool for the benefit of the whole community?
> >
> > Any ideas on this ?
> >
> >
> > > On Friday, April 4, 2014 at 7:43 AM, arin-ppml-request at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml-request at arin.net) wrote:
> > >
> > > Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to
> > > arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)
> > >
> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > > arin-ppml-request at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml-request at arin.net)
> > >
> > > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > > arin-ppml-owner at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml-owner at arin.net)
> > >
> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > > than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Today's Topics:
> > >
> > > 1. Re: ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 7 (Chris R. Squatritto)
> > > 2. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
> > > and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (John Curran)
> > > 3. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
> > > and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (Milton L Mueller)
> > > 4. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
> > > and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (xiaofan yang)
> > > 5. Re: Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict Between RSA
> > > and 8.2 Utilization Requirements (xiaofan yang)
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:30:45 -0700
> > > From: "Chris R. Squatritto" <csquat at ccsd.net (mailto:csquat at ccsd.net)>
> > > To: arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 7
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <fc.004c4e074f3bba733b9aca00e3f873db.4f3bba74 at interact.ccsd.net (mailto:fc.004c4e074f3bba733b9aca00e3f873db.4f3bba74 at interact.ccsd.net)>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > > I am out of the office this week and will not be checking email. Please
> > > contact Troy Miller for assistance..
> > >
> > > Thank you for contacting me, and have a great day.
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140402/5723c721/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 2
> > > Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 23:59:20 +0000
> > > From: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)>
> > > To: xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com (mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com)>
> > > Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
> > > Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
> > > Message-ID: <6BBC9339-AE30-446A-8406-8237A8C3477F at arin.net (mailto:6BBC9339-AE30-446A-8406-8237A8C3477F at arin.net)>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 4:27 PM, xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com (mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > I have further enquiry about ARIN 8.2 process.
> > > >
> > > > Number one:I am also worried about the costs of doing a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer. I wonder if I will have to involve the legal help to deal with ARIN legal. In my case I bought a company that now is out of business. How complicated does ARIN make this process? I want some assurance that I will be treated equally to any other companies whether it is a big company or a small company like us.
> > >
> > > Niki -
> > >
> > > You will be treated equally, but in truth I'm not certain that is actually what you want...
> > > (for example, a process which seems routine for a large organization could still pose
> > > a disproportionate burden to a smaller organization since organization size is not a
> > > factor in the verification process.)
> > >
> > > The first and foremost activity is to make sure that we have your organization registered
> > > as the rightful address holder, and that will require an NRPM 8.2 transfer. It can actually
> > > be relatively straightforward process, as long as you have clear documentation of the
> > > purchase of the company. Review the instructions here for additional information about
> > > what is accepted - <https://www.arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_2.html>
> > >
> > > > Number two: If we do a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer, will the stated purpose for our number resources remains the same?? I am afraid of that ARIN will not approve our transfer.
> > >
> > > If you are the clear party with the rights after your purchase, ARIN will approve your
> > > transfer. We may note that you have more addresses than you now need, and thus
> > > we expect you to return or transfer the remainder (but that would seem to line up with
> > > your intentions in any case.)
> > >
> > > If you have purchased a company without adequate documentation, or if multiple
> > > parties purchased multiple pieces of the company, or if there some question about
> > > what was purchased based on the documentation, then it can be more challenging
> > > to get the resources appropriately listed with you as the rightful holder. You will need
> > > to apply for the transfer and work with the ARIN Hostmaster to determine if there is
> > > any issue in your particular case.
> > >
> > > > Number three: As we have bought the company, do we have the property right on those IPs? in our past agreement and future agreement arranged for 8.3, we would like to have some kinds of property right on those IPs, will that conflict with ARIN policy?
> > >
> > > Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of rights to the
> > > address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services agreement that
> > > you enter with ARIN), and these rights include:
> > >
> > > (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database;
> > > (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database; and
> > > (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number Resources pursuant to the Policies.
> > >
> > > ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of property rights
> > > in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage the address blocks
> > > in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have other beliefs
> > > with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice.
> > >
> > > I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any additional questions.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > /John
> > >
> > > John Curran
> > > President and CEO
> > > ARIN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 15:33:13 +0000
> > > From: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu (mailto:mueller at syr.edu)>
> > > To: "'John Curran'" <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)>, xiaofan yang
> > > <nikiyangxf at gmail.com (mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com)>
> > > Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
> > > Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
> > > Message-ID: <1846d87fe7164f22a7c63e9d1fed321e at EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu (mailto:1846d87fe7164f22a7c63e9d1fed321e at EX13-MBX-13.ad.syr.edu)>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > > Niki:
> > > For most economists and lawyers, the definition of a "property right" involves the right to use, the right to exclude others from using, and the right to transfer. As John's message makes clear, all those rights are present in the number block lease you get from ARIN. So although the RSA makes you formally declaim a property right, what you are getting from the RSA is a bundle of rights that for all practical purposes has the same economic features as a property right.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of rights to the address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services agreement that you enter with ARIN), and these rights include:
> > >
> > > (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database;
> > > (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN database; and
> > > (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number Resources pursuant to the Policies.
> > >
> > > ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of property rights in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage the address blocks in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have other beliefs with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice.
> > >
> > > I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any additional questions.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > /John
> > >
> > > John Curran
> > > President and CEO
> > > ARIN
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PPML
> > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net (mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net)).
> > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > > Please contact info at arin.net (mailto:info at arin.net) if you experience any issues.
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 4
> > > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:33:04 +0800
> > > From: xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com (mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com)>
> > > To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)>
> > > Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)" <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
> > > Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CAPhL6MpzKW1q2Cw9+SfZ+hap6ecwns6JzdBEp+xvK8dF7VMwxg at mail.gmail.com (mailto:CAPhL6MpzKW1q2Cw9+SfZ+hap6ecwns6JzdBEp+xvK8dF7VMwxg at mail.gmail.com)>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > >
> > > In basis of your reply, if the block is underutilised,ARIN will either ask
> > > the company to return the IPs or transfer to other third party via 8.3
> > > transfer after our 8.2 transfer.
> > >
> > >
> > > Say we have two /16 after this 8.2 transfer, what if we only transfer one
> > > /16 to the other third party via 8.3 transfer, meanwhile, we keep the
> > > other /16 left unused after our 8.2 transfer for quiet a while. Will ARIN
> > > ask us to return the remained /16 to the free pool? furthmore, how long
> > > will ARIN allow us to keep the other /16 unused before we transfer it to
> > > the third party via 8.3 transfer ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Niki
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 7:59 AM, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Apr 2, 2014, at 4:27 PM, xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com (mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi John,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have further enquiry about ARIN 8.2 process.
> > > > >
> > > > > Number one:I am also worried about the costs of doing a 8.2 transfer
> > > > followed by a 8.3 transfer. I wonder if I will have to involve the legal
> > > > help to deal with ARIN legal. In my case I bought a company that now is
> > > > out of business. How complicated does ARIN make this process? I want some
> > > > assurance that I will be treated equally to any other companies whether it
> > > > is a big company or a small company like us.
> > > >
> > > > Niki -
> > > >
> > > > You will be treated equally, but in truth I'm not certain that is actually
> > > > what you want...
> > > > (for example, a process which seems routine for a large organization could
> > > > still pose
> > > > a disproportionate burden to a smaller organization since organization
> > > > size is not a
> > > > factor in the verification process.)
> > > >
> > > > The first and foremost activity is to make sure that we have your
> > > > organization registered
> > > > as the rightful address holder, and that will require an NRPM 8.2
> > > > transfer. It can actually
> > > > be relatively straightforward process, as long as you have clear
> > > > documentation of the
> > > > purchase of the company. Review the instructions here for additional
> > > > information about
> > > > what is accepted - <
> > > > https://www.arin.net/resources/request/transfers_8_2.html>
> > > >
> > > > > Number two: If we do a 8.2 transfer followed by a 8.3 transfer, will
> > > > the stated purpose for our number resources remains the same?? I am afraid
> > > > of that ARIN will not approve our transfer.
> > > >
> > > > If you are the clear party with the rights after your purchase, ARIN will
> > > > approve your
> > > > transfer. We may note that you have more addresses than you now need, and
> > > > thus
> > > > we expect you to return or transfer the remainder (but that would seem to
> > > > line up with
> > > > your intentions in any case.)
> > > >
> > > > If you have purchased a company without adequate documentation, or if
> > > > multiple
> > > > parties purchased multiple pieces of the company, or if there some
> > > > question about
> > > > what was purchased based on the documentation, then it can be more
> > > > challenging
> > > > to get the resources appropriately listed with you as the rightful holder.
> > > > You will need
> > > > to apply for the transfer and work with the ARIN Hostmaster to determine
> > > > if there is
> > > > any issue in your particular case.
> > > >
> > > > > Number three: As we have bought the company, do we have the property
> > > > right on those IPs? in our past agreement and future agreement arranged
> > > > for 8.3, we would like to have some kinds of property right on those IPs,
> > > > will that conflict with ARIN policy?
> > > >
> > > > Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of
> > > > rights to the
> > > > address blocks in the registry (as defined by the registration services
> > > > agreement that
> > > > you enter with ARIN), and these rights include:
> > > >
> > > > (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number
> > > > Resources within the ARIN database;
> > > > (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN
> > > > database; and
> > > > (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number
> > > > Resources pursuant to the Policies.
> > > >
> > > > ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of
> > > > property rights
> > > > in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the ability to manage
> > > > the address blocks
> > > > in accordance with community-developed policy in the region. If you have
> > > > other beliefs
> > > > with respect to your rights, that would probably be an area for you to
> > > > seek legal advice.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any
> > > > additional questions.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > /John
> > > >
> > > > John Curran
> > > > President and CEO
> > > > ARIN
> > > >
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140404/fd4aa749/attachment-0001.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > Message: 5
> > > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 07:43:43 +0800
> > > From: xiaofan yang <nikiyangxf at gmail.com (mailto:nikiyangxf at gmail.com)>
> > > To: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu (mailto:mueller at syr.edu)>
> > > Cc: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net (mailto:jcurran at arin.net)>, "arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)"
> > > <arin-ppml at arin.net (mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net)>
> > > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy ARIN-2014-9: Resolve Conflict
> > > Between RSA and 8.2 Utilization Requirements
> > > Message-ID:
> > > <CAPhL6MrQdn-=5g8ZKSntVpVca7pRrwuWLxCAiTrgv2d672wX3A at mail.gmail.com (mailto:5g8ZKSntVpVca7pRrwuWLxCAiTrgv2d672wX3A at mail.gmail.com)>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> > >
> > > Hi Milton,
> > >
> > > thanks for your inspiring reply. Now i know that we have the "ownership"
> > > of those IPs. as you are one of the AC, i take your reply seriously and
> > > also this is good news for the community, especially for those legacy
> > > holders, if the holder of ARIN non-legacy IPs can have the "ownership'
> > > then the holder of legacy IPs definitely has the ownership on their IPs
> > > no matter whether they sign the RSA , LRSA or not.
> > >
> > > Hope ARIN will not impose unpredictable "restrictions" when legacy or
> > > non-legacy holder begins its transfer request. Moreover, when ARIN reject
> > > a transfer , hope ARIN will not use the "confidential terms" as an excuse
> > > for not reply communities' questions in ppml. or ARIN will reply with
> > > bunch of info mean nothing.
> > > Niki
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:33 PM, Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu (mailto:mueller at syr.edu)> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Niki:
> > > > For most economists and lawyers, the definition of a "property right"
> > > > involves the right to use, the right to exclude others from using, and the
> > > > right to transfer. As John's message makes clear, all those rights are
> > > > present in the number block lease you get from ARIN. So although the RSA
> > > > makes you formally declaim a property right, what you are getting from the
> > > > RSA is a bundle of rights that for all practical purposes has the same
> > > > economic features as a property right.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > > Wonderful question - it is ARIN's position that you have a specific set of
> > > > rights to the address blocks in the registry (as defined by the
> > > > registration services agreement that you enter with ARIN), and these rights
> > > > include:
> > > >
> > > > (1) The exclusive right to be the registrant of the Included Number
> > > > Resources within the ARIN database;
> > > > (2) The right to use the Included Number Resources within the ARIN
> > > > database; and
> > > > (3) The right to transfer the registration of the Included Number
> > > > Resources pursuant to the Policies.
> > > >
> > > > ARIN registration services agreement includes a specific disclaimer of
> > > > property rights in the address blocks, as it is inconsistent with the
> > > > ability to manage the address blocks in accordance with community-developed
> > > > policy in the region. If you have other beliefs with respect to your
> > > > rights, that would probably be an area for you to seek legal advice.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this helps; please do not hesitate to ask if you have any
> > > > additional questions.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > /John
> > > >
> > > > John Curran
> > > > President and CEO
> > > > ARIN
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > PPML
> > > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
> > > > Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net (mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net)).
> > > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> > > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > > > Please contact info at arin.net (mailto:info at arin.net) if you experience any issues.
> > > >
> > >
> > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL: <http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20140404/57c3a01e/attachment.html>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ARIN-PPML mailing list
> > > ARIN-PPML at arin.net (mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net)
> > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml
> > >
> > > End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 106, Issue 8
> > > *****************************************
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PPML
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML at arin.net (mailto:ARIN-PPML at arin.net)).
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