[arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-172 Additional definition for NRPM Section 2 - Legacy Resources

[Milton L Mueller]

> -----Original Message-----
> If I put the property religion aside, can we explore one of the points
> you make below? 

[Milton L Mueller] Sure...

> [is it] advisable for all the ISPs, End user network operators, content provider
> networks, Universities, and everyone who operates the Internet to pave
> the way for post-allocation services and interact with other addressing
> registrars.

[Milton L Mueller] For some of them the answer is emphatically yes, for others, it will make little difference either way. 
There is no homogeneity in this community with respect to their interests on this matter. Tom Vest's attempt to poison the well notwithstanding, we don't have to have an abstract debate about methodological individualism in the social sciences to agree on that simple fact.

> My question would be why? As with any value proposition, do the benefits
> they receive outweigh the price they have to pay? 

[Milton L Mueller] That depends on how big the price is and how big the benefits are. I suspect that both will be a function of the length of time it takes to get to IPv6, if we get there at all. If we enter into an extended period of IPv4/v6 coexistence, say 10 years or more, increasingly scarce v4 resources will need to be carefully managed and husbanded. In that case, the value of having specialist address registrars and a competitive post-allocation services market would be quite enormous, and extend to quite a few operators. And the value of having ARIN and the other RIRs develop an ability to integrate multiple private, competing, efficient registrars with a single, global authoritative database would be potentially quite beneficial also - even if the transition to v6 was not so long. 

> All the networks around
> the globe benefit from the central coordination of the RIR system as a
> mechanism to participate in the Internet.

[Milton L Mueller] problem is, it isn't really centrally coordinated. There are 5 RIRs and you have to search separately in each one. The RIRs and their Whois are actually quite antiquated in some respects. 
 
> Because some address holders or individuals wish to trade IP address
> space for money, it is not done without a cost. To operate under such a
> model, those costs are pushed out to all those entities listed above
> that currently benefit from the central coordination. Why should all the

[Milton L Mueller] I have been saying all along that you can have central coordination AND competition/multiple registrars; we do it in DNS and we do it in stock trades. So are you assuming that the model I am discussing involves eliminating coordinated uniqueness? No wonder you think you're against it!  

> network operators across the Internet incur the costs of having to refer
> to multiple regristrar systems and the inevitable disputes that will
> result beyond those that already occur in the current model?

[Milton L Mueller] Like Paul V., you see this as something that only a few brokers want. I suspect that it is operators and ipv4 address holders that will drive this, the brokers are only responding to that market. If the operators don't want it, or if it harms operators or increases their relative costs, it won't happen. On that we agree. 
 
> It is only my opinion but the property argument is misleading. Some are
> being led to believe that they can pay xxx amount of dollars for an IP
> block and it will work across the Internet. Those dollars spent, or even
> a US court order do not guarantee global connectivity to the Internet.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a pretty large portion of the
> Internet that does not care about what a US judge might decide. I think
> we really need to weigh the costs and the benefits of the road we are
> heading down.

[Milton L Mueller] I think if RIRs or whatever registration system evolves out of them accurately reflect the results of trades, then yes, damn right, someone ought to be able to pay xxx dollars for an IP block and those addresses should be as easily routable as they were before the trade. 

> Dan Alexander
> Speaking only as myself

[Tom Vest] speaking for Milton Mueller
[Milton L Mueller] speaking for myself, too