[arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-165 Eliminate Needs-Based Justification

Sweeting, John john.sweeting at twcable.com
Fri Feb 17 12:55:52 EST 2012

Hi Milton,

A few questions since I am not an expert in markets.  Do you think there is a scenario where the largest and wealthiest of the world's ISP's would buy up as much address space as they could just to keep it out of the hands of their competitors? Or new start ups in their markets?  There are some very wealthy companies out there that would not blink an eye at spending the money needed to run their competitors out of the market but maybe that is not possible in this particular market. Is there a way that a small but well of portion of the market could insure prices are so high that the number of competitors would be capped or even reduced? As I said I am not an expert on markets so would very much welcome your views on this.



From: Milton L Mueller <mueller at syr.edu<mailto:mueller at syr.edu>>
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:41:03 -0500
To: 'Paul Vixie' <paul at redbarn.org<mailto:paul at redbarn.org>>, "jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com<mailto:jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com>" <jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com<mailto:jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com>>
Cc: "arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>" <arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-165 Eliminate Needs-Based Justification

Actually, Paul, a rigid insistence on needs assessments simply gives buyers the strongest possible incentive to deal only with legacy holders and to conduct the transfers outside of the ARIN 8.3 process.

In an environment in which the free pool is fully occupied and all address allocations occur through transfers from one party to another, the economic and institutional justification for needs assessments disappear. More precisely (and there is actually some economic science to be considered here, although  I am sure that it will not affect you) the basis for "need" shifts from technical to economic. Given inherent uncertainty regarding a) the future value of the addresses, b) the speed with we will make the migration to IPv6 if at all, c) the arbitrary time horizon that is imposed on applicants by the needs assessment process (3 months? 6 months? 3 years?), a buyer could easily fail to qualify for "need" under traditional criteria but the socially efficient thing to do would be to let them buy them.
The idea that ARIN needs to decide who is a valid recipient of IPv4 blocks is just a bump in the road that does no one any good.

I guess you want to learn this the hard way.

From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net> [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Paul Vixie
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 10:27 AM
To: jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com<mailto:jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com>
Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml at arin.net>
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-165 Eliminate Needs-Based Justification

On 2012-02-17 3:19 PM, jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com<mailto:jeffmehlenbacher at ipv4marketgroup.com> wrote:
Paul, I cannot speak to how other brokers structure their business, but we do not actually hold address space if I interpret you literally.  Our Sellers hold the address space.  We are contracted by companies with unused IPv4 blocks to source a company with need.  Once a potential needer is identified, we facilitate agreement on price, timing and other conditions of a transfer then provide the necessary legal documents and guidance to execute the transactions contingent upon ARIN approval.  The value of any broker--be it insurance, mortgage, real estate or IPv4 transfers--is subjective but clearly if a Seller and a Buyer prefer to use a broker, they should do so.  The Policy Proposal as written assumes there may or may not be broker involvement in Specified Transfers.

thank you jeff. it seems that you have misunderstood the current policies, which allow everything you describe, so long as the needer can demonstrate that need to ARIN. there is a place in the "transfer listing service" for brokers, too. i'm at a loss to understand what it about the current transfer policies that won't fit the model you're describing above.


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