[arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment - ISP liability

Scott Leibrand scottleibrand at gmail.com
Wed Aug 15 17:01:18 EDT 2012


As others have mentioned, that is a question for a lawyer.  Of particular
interest may be legal theories on common carrier status, and more
specifically (in the US) the safe harbor requirements in the DMCA and
similar laws.

-Scott

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Chu, Yi [NTK] <Yi.Chu at sprint.com> wrote:

>  That is fine.  ISP A will do whatever it takes.  But can C make a legal
> case against A just because the whois record is outdated, so C lost
> sometime during the course?
>
>
>
> yi
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Leibrand [mailto:scottleibrand at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 4:52 PM
> *To:* Chu, Yi [NTK]
> *Cc:* McTim; arin-ppml at arin.net
>
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment - ISP
> liability
>
>
>
> Speaking practically (not legally) what usually happens in that situation
> is that C will contact A and ask them to address the DDoS. A will then be
> more responsible for blocking the traffic (or getting in touch with B) than
> if B's info were up to date.
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Aug 15, 2012, at 1:33 PM, "Chu, Yi [NTK]" <Yi.Chu at sprint.com> wrote:
>
>  So ISP A made a reassignment, and created the org ID on behalf of its
> customer (company B).  At that time, the business location and POC were
> correct in the swipped records.  A year later, company B changed its
> business location, or its POC switched job.  However,  B did not notify ISP
> A of the change.  Now some third party C has some DDOS traffic coming from
> the company B.  C is checking on WHOIS and found the contact info for B
> outdated.  Is this ground for C to make a legal case against ISP A?
>
>
>
> yi
>
>
>
> *From:* McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:20 PM
> *To:* Chu, Yi [NTK]
> *Cc:* arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment - ISP
> liability
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Chu, Yi [NTK] <Yi.Chu at sprint.com> wrote:
>
> Can ARIN staff answer the question whether ISP have legal liability
>
>
>
>
>
> Perhaps if you could be more specific about what type of liability you
> mean?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> McTim
> "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route
> indicates how we get there."  Jon Postel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  for the reassignment they made on their downstream customers’ behalf?
>
>
>
> yi
>
>
>
> *From:* arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] *On
> Behalf Of *Chu, Yi [NTK]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:13 PM
> *To:* Aaron Dudek
> *Cc:* arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment
>
>
>
> Aaron:
>
> Not necessarily true.  Customer can move their mailing address without
> telling their upstream ISP.  They can just forget it.  Their accounts
> receiving department may or may not be the same as their ‘authoritative’
> contact info that ISP put in the whois for them.
>
>
>
> Let alone the POC records.  It actually took quite a while for my company
> to update some folks after they switched jobs. (you know whom I am
> referring to).  I know that for a fact.  And as for my customers, I do not
> recall last time anyone told me that their POC changed, but I suspect a lot
> of them did.
>
>
>
> So I am a bit uneasy as the discussion seemed to implicate that I am
> legally liable in some ways.  I need to find out, and if so, need to get my
> acts together.  It is a bit off topic, so I apologize.
>
>
>
> yi
>
>
>
> *From:* Aaron Dudek [mailto:adudek16 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:57 PM
> *To:* Chu, Yi [NTK]
> *Cc:* Jimmy Hess; Owen DeLong; arin-ppml at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment
>
>
>
> Well, you bill the customer, so if the customer moves without telling you,
> you can figure out how that works.
> POCs change all the time. I'm sure that you know how to update and correct
> that when it is found out. Either someone will contact your company and say
> something or they will contact you when they are no longer able to reach
> certain sites.
>
> Aaron
>
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Chu, Yi [NTK] <Yi.Chu at sprint.com> wrote:
>
> So ISP creates swip and POC records on behalf of its customers.  Does that
> put ISP in a legal binding that in case customer moves, or customer's POC
> changes job without telling the ISP, that ISP has any legal implication for
> not knowing?
>
> yi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
> Behalf Of Jimmy Hess
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 10:20 PM
> To: Owen DeLong
> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-180 ISP Private Reassignment
>
> On 8/9/12, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > some legitimate contact address for the customer in question. Ideally
> > the one where they would prefer to receive service of legal process.
>
> I think many organizations would prefer to not receive service of
> legal process at any address.
>
> The org address listed in WHOIS should be a mailing address that is an
> authoritative contact for both the organization and the network.
> Example uses of a mailing address could include:
>
> (*) Verification of of identity on the part of upstreams and
> prospective peers,  by proof of ability to receive mail, or comparison
> to other records.
>
> (*) Contact by letter sent via postal mail or private courier as a
> last resort, for reporting technical or abuse issues, that for some
> reason the e-mail based or telephone contact was not responsive for,
> for example, the telephone may be malfunctioning, or disconnected,
> and someone forgot to update WHOIS.
>
> (*) Reporting of network abuse issues,  by going there in person to
> report face-to-face or via courier/postal mail, where the technical
> contact was believed to be complicit in the abuse for some reason.
>
> (*)  Reporting of possible hacker compromises impacting the mail
> server that  the technical contact's mail is hosting on,  or  when
> e-mail is otherwise returned as undeliverable  or not acknowledged.
>
>
> > Owen
> --
> -JH
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