[arin-ppml] ARIN-prop-157 Section 8.3 Simplification

Owen DeLong owen at delong.com
Thu Sep 22 18:42:12 EDT 2011

On Sep 22, 2011, at 3:06 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote:

> On Sep 21, 2011, at 10:08 PM, Tom Vest wrote:
>> Believe it.
> I do, because here I am doing it again.
>> You are erroneously presuming that protocol number resources as a class already possess the status that this proposal would impose on them, i.e.,  that of chattel property. But they don't,
> I do think that a market mechanism will allow operators to get number resources, in an environment where addresses are scarce and the RIRs can't help.  I have yet to see anyone suggest a realistic alternative.  As for "status" as "chattel", those are your words not mine.
Which does not apply to ASNs and IPv6 numbers. As to his words "status" and "chattel", they merely represent the treatment which you seek (through this proposal) to apply to the resources, so, regardless of who first applied them, they are an accurate reflection of the intent.

> Contrary to the common prejudice, not all advocates of an address market are laissez faire free-market advocates.  I happen to believe strongly in the value of pragmatic regulation.  Of course, regulation only works when it is carried out by an agency authorized to do so (and with the power to enforce).

I don't completely agree with you here. There are many counter-examples, such as the various agencies that certify
SCUBA divers and the manner in which the SCUBA diving industry regulates itself. Of course, the existing RIR system
is also a working counter-example, but, I figured you might need at least one that you weren't actively trying to dismantle.

> In any case, I'd welcome a conversation on the topic of addresses as property. But this wasn't actually the topic of my previous message.

It's certainly the topic of proposal 157.

>> and your attempts to shoehorn the policy discussion into the narrow terms of your own ideology will indeed be in vain.
> I appreciate your attempt to leverage my own terminology, but it illustrates that you've missed the point.
> There are those on PPML that apparently think ARIN's primary role is policy.  But some of us rather think that ARIN's primary role is registration. (You know, the second "R" in RIR.)  Aligned with this latter perspective is a respect for the de facto "sovereignty" of operators that ARIN supports.  My contention is that ARIN has no right to legislate and no power to regulate.

Well, from ARIN's articles of incorporation:

SEVENTH: The Corporation shall be operated exclusively for educational, charitable, and scientific purposes within the meaning of § 501(c)(6) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as now in effect or as may hereafter be amended ("the Code"). The purposes for which the Corporation is formed are:
to increase and diffuse knowledge to the general public about the Internet in its broadest sense;
to educate industry and the Internet community in order to further their technical understanding of the Internet;
to secure united action and to represent the Internet community nationally and internationally;
to manage and help conserve scarce Internet protocol resources, and to educate Internet protocol users on how to efficiently utilize these scarce resources as a service to the entire Internet community;
to do all and everything necessary to enhance the growth of the Internet and the prospects for competition among Internet Service Providers by encouraging the exploration and implementation of solutions to Internet Protocol number scarcity issues;
to encourage the exploration of new addressing and routing technologies that reduce or eliminate the costs or in some cases the need for renumbering when an Internet Service Provider or end user changes to a new Internet Service Provider; and, when such alternatives are developed, to work with its members to facilitate the assignment of portable addresses and/or the elimination of the cost of Internet Protocol renumbering;
to encourage allocation policy changes for Internet Service Providers in order to enhance competition by providing mobility of Internet Service Providers among upstream Internet Service Providers when it is generally agreed that the technology is available for portable addressing;
to manage the allocation and registration of Internet resources;
to promote and facilitate the expansion, development, and growth of the infrastructure of the Internet for the general public and members by any means consistent with the public interest through other activities, including, but not limited to, publications, meetings, conferences, training, educational seminars, and the issuance of grants and other financial support to educational institutions, foundations and other organizations exclusively for educational, charitable, and scientific purposes.
It looks like registration comes as task number 8 somewhere behind education, policy, and management and conservation among other things.

> Which brings me back to the original issue:  If we wish ARIN to prohibit something, the burden is on us to demonstrate why and how.  I see no basis for prohibiting ASN transfers, unless somebody can explain why it causes harm.  I'm personally skeptical of the value in transferring ASNs, but that's no reason to object.

A number of others have already expressed some of the various harms that can come from a more
liberalized transfer of ASNs.


> Cheers,
> -Benson
>> On Sep 21, 2011, at 9:31 PM, Benson Schliesser wrote:
>>> This is incredibly backwards thinking. If somebody in the community wishes to do something and you wish to prohibit it, the burden of justification is yours. 
>>> ARIN is here to serve, not vainly attempt to enforce ideology (or whim). I'd prefer that we just do our job, maintain an accurate registry, and record transfers when they happen. 
>>> I can't believe I'm even bothering to respond to this...
>>> -Benson
>>> On Sep 21, 2011, at 18:59, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>>>> I would turn this around… I don't believe anyone has presented
>>>> a strong argument for allowing ASN transfers and I do not believe
>>>> that the community would benefit from such an action.
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