[arin-ppml] New IPv4 Transfer policy

David Farmer farmer at umn.edu
Tue May 10 13:06:08 EDT 2011

On 5/10/11 10:16 CDT, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> On 5/9/2011 11:02 PM, David Farmer wrote:
>> On 5/9/11 17:11 CDT, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>>> Ask ARIN
>>> Financially, the fees for the block of numbers that Microsoft got
>>> from that transfer are nothing in comparison to what they paid for
>>> it, and Microsoft is also known for spending tons of money on
>>> useless stuff. So there must have been some difference between
>>> the RSA and the LRSA that made Microsoft choose the LRSA and the
>>> only thing I can think of is the LRSA is less restrictive in some
>>> manner.
>>> I suspect we need to have ARIN modify the LRSA. The LRSA was sold
>>> to us on the basis that it was the same thing as the RSA without
>>> the annual fee. Obviously, the Microsoft lawyers found out that
>>> this wasn't true. ARIN has a lot of explaining to do, here.
>>> Ted
>> I'm not sure what you feel you were sold. However, the details of the
>> LRSA are not secret, have been published for sometime, and there is more
>> than just a difference in fees for Legacy ISPs. Note: Legacy end users
>> pay the same annual fees as any other end user.
> Microsoft, a company with 80K employees, could not have possibly
> provided justification that would have resulted in 50% utilization of
> 500K additional IP addresses in 1 year. Are you proposing the company
> grow 4 times it's existing size in 1 year? The only possible
> justification would be if they were buying them to reallocate to
> customers in a network the same way that any LIR does.
> I fail to see what is to be gained by defending what Microsoft did here.
> Insisting that ARIN have them sign an LRSA instead of the RSA is
> deplorable. For all ARIN's labor they put into handling this transfer
> they get paid $100?

I think you misunderstand my comments, I have not, and refuse to 
speculate, defend, or otherwise comment regarding what Microsoft did or 
didn't do. I simple do not know enough facts to do anything but 
participate in rumor mongering, so I have decided to abstain from 
commenting. However, I'll admit I have been very tempted, so please 
don't take this comment as condemning you or anyone else who has 
commented, that is not my intent.  I simply want to set the record 
strait, it wasn't my intent to comment about Microsoft.

My comment was directed at what I felt was your accusation that you felt 
the LRSA was misrepresented and was only about the fees that a legacy 
resource holder should pay.

> ARIN costs money to run and it isn't the Net Fairies that pay for it.
> It's all the ISP's who are reallocating IP
> addresses that pay for ARIN, that is money that is coming out of the
> pockets of hard working men and women who build the networks that
> allow Joe Blow and Sally Schmoe to get online.

I agree running ARIN and all that represents, which is far more than 
just running a database, is expensive. I personally have had nothing to 
do with setting the rate structure.  I simple arranged for the legacy 
resource holding organization that I represent, at least in my day job, 
to sign a LRSA, after what I felt were necessary improvements had been 
made. So, the University of Minnesota is at least paying something 
related to its Legacy holdings now, making its contribution.

>> So, your view on the
>> difference, or lack there of, in the fees can vary significantly
>> depending on your perspective.
> Here's a thought, how about we charge EVERY address holder the same
> amount of money that end users pay?

I think there are defiantly some inequities between the fees for a large 
end user organization and a small ISP, especially in the case of IPv4. 
In the case of the University of Minnesota, we felt that an IPv6 
allocation was most appropriate for our planned use of IPv6 and we 
should be paying an annual fee associated with that allocation.  So 
those inequities may fade as part of the IPv6 transition, in some cases, 
at least that is my hope.

>> There has been a FAQ regarding the LRSA
>> for sometime as well, the current version is at;
>> https://www.arin.net/resources/legacy/
>> It provides an excellent summary of the LRSA, for those who aren't into
>> recreationally reading contracts. :) I know the LRSA, and the RSA,
>> almost put me to sleep when I had to read it as part of getting my
>> organization to sign them. :) I only survived with the assistance of
>> multiple caffeinated beverages. :)
>> I'll also add that a number of improvements have been made in the LRSA
>> since its initial version, and a number of these improvements have been
>> integrated into the RSA as well, for the benefit of everyone who has
>> received resources from ARIN.
> The problem here is you cannot discern the real difference between the
> RSA and the LRSA just by reading them. Just as you cannot discern the
> real meaning of the NRPM by just reading it. For example the NRPM
> says that transfer recipients sign "RSA" It is only when you parse the
> syntax the way that a lawyer would that you can see that this could
> mean an LRSA or an RSA.

Agreed, the NRPM, RSA, and LRSA are not simple to understand, but I'm 
not completely sure what can really be done about that.  As an AC member 
I have been trying to make the NRPM more understandable, but that leads 
to long and wordy policy proposals which a vocal portion of the 
community doesn't like.  They want to deal with small concise portions 
of policy text at a time.  I understand that desire, but it doesn't lead 
to a smooth, flowing, understandable overall body of policy text.  It 
creates stand-alone ideas that may or may not logically link or flow 
with the text and other policies surrounding it.

As for the RSA and LRSA they are contracts and the realm of lawyers and 
legalese and probably always will be, this is not a new problem though, 
Shakespeare said "kill all the Lawyers."  I'm not sure that is a 
socially acceptable solution to the problem. :)

> I would like to know what the Microsoft lawyers parsed out of the two
> documents that made the LRSA so much more attractive. I can read both
> documents and see differences but I don't know how a lawyer would
> interpret what those differences are and why one would be so much more
> attractive than the other.

Unfortunately that is not how our adversarial legal system works.

> Ted

David Farmer               Email:farmer at umn.edu
Networking & Telecommunication Services
Office of Information Technology
University of Minnesota	
2218 University Ave SE	    Phone: 612-626-0815
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029   Cell: 612-812-9952

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