[arin-ppml] IPV6, Not yet (OT)

Ted Mittelstaedt tedm at ipinc.net
Thu Apr 14 20:24:48 EDT 2011

On 4/14/2011 3:08 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>> It takes development time and dollars for any product, and adding in
>>>> IPv6 support isn't any different.  The manufacturer had to spend R&D
>>>> dollars to add an IPv6 stack into the management card and so they are
>>>> going to pass that cost to the consumer.
>>> Yes, but, they've had a decade and then some to do that. Sorry, not
>>> much sympathy here for the pathetic state of many vendor's products.
>>> Other manufacturers have found their way there, so, obviously it is
>>> possible. D-Link sells a whole range of $50 routers with IPv6 support.
>> I would have let your response stand until I came to that.  What good is
>> a router that supports IPv6 if it locks up all the time?
> I know a number of people running DIR-625 and 685s that do not
> have that problem.

I keep reading that but once burned, twice shy.  The 625 is also more 

>> People praise D-link and some may say they are stable but I got a
>> DIR-615 rev C at home that I bought brand new that says otherwise.
>> It's been babied and I even still have the box for it but the
>> radio locks up at random intervals and it did that right out of the
>> box.  Of course, I didn't figure out what it was doing until it was
>> too late to return it to the store.
>> I'll wait until I see some better quality coming out of that company
>> before I send them anymore green.
> That's your call. You're the first of about 50 people I've known with that
> box to say it is unstable. I have many other criticisms of the DIR series,
> but, I'm not aware of chronic stability problems.
> As such, I'll stand by my statement that the possibility of a $50 residential
> gateway with IPv6 support has been proven. (Even if you don't like
> the D-Link, the AVM FritzBox also works).
>>> I wouldn't buy one today, but, 8 years ago when I bought that unit (it certainly
>>> wasn't a stripped down low-cost model at $2,300 for a 34" television and it
>>> was VERY heavy), it was a very high quality unit and the only available flat
>>> panel technology was gas plasma which had serious reliability and lifetime
>>> problems.
>> I'm not talking about 8 year old TVs.  I am typing this on a glass CRT running 1800 x 1440 so I'm well aware of the capabilities of a CRT.  But the high-end TV makers stopped using glass CRTs a while ago.  I was talking about hi-def CRT's that you can walk into the discount store
>> and buy today.  You can see the lines on them from across the room.
> Yeah, I've seen those. I haven't seen anyone buying them, but, I've seen them collecting
> dust on the shelves in a couple of stores.
>>>> I could see LG or other manufacturer producing a combination BlueRay/DVD/VCR/HD Tuner unit that only output in NTSC for use with an
>>>> older TV set in the $39.95 range.  It would sell like hotcakes to
>>>> the blue-haired crowd who just need something for the grandkids
>>>> to run their new-fangled disks on when they are over.
>>> Why bother to include a BluRay (there really isn't an e in BluRay, dude)
>>> reader? The blue-hair isn't going to pay the price-premium for the BluRay
>>> discs.
>> Because within 3-5 years the motion picture association will not be
>> releasing anything on DVD anymore.  Partly due to the resolution but
>> mainly because CSS was cracked years ago and you can rip a DVD to your
>> hard disk, while with BluRay they still hold out hope that they will be
>> able to some day release a BluRay encryption scheme that Slysoft won't be able to crack.
> BluRay has already been cracked.

BluRay allows for future encryption so all the MPA has to do is dream up 
a new encryption standard and start making disks with it, then have all 
the BluRay manufacturers push firmware updates to their players.  And 
they are doing that all of the time, I probably get about 2 updates
a month on my LG.  The MPA is under the impression that the problem of
secure disc encryption can be solved if they throw enough money at it,
and they are busy doing that.  You don't actually think that the MPA
will ever come to believe that their millions of dollars aren't up to
the task of going against a dedicated cracker in his basement, do you?

  I doubt they will be able to deprecate
> DVD as fast as you think. I have enough BD players that I don't care if they
> do, but, I don't think they can. For one thing, there are still a lot of laptops
> being made with DVD drives and not BD drives.

Look at what is happening with Redbox, Best Buy, etc. etc.  They release
BluRay with a DVD included in the box.  So the people with only DVD 
drives buy the BluRay disc, thinking that it's better to have the new
technology -and- the old technology even if they can't play the new
technology right away.

Most people buying a movie are buying it because they think they will 
keep it forever.  If they wanted to get it for just a cheap thrill
then toss it aside they would rent or netflix it.  I guarentee that 
everyone walking out of a Best Buy with Star Wars on BluRay thinks that
this is the very, very last time I will ever buy Star Wars, that I'm
done with lining Lucas's pockets, and I can throw away my 
vhs/vcd/laserdisc/dvd that at the time I bought them were gonna be the very
last copy of that movie that I'm going to have the rest of my life.

Then 20 years from now they will be doing the exact same thing, and
buying that data crystal that is going to be the very last copy of
Star Wars, and throwing away their BluRay that this year was going to
be the very last copy.

So yeah, I think they will deprecate it a lot faster than you think.
They have to.  They got to get rid of it so that they can get everyone
on BluRay so they can get rid of that and make them all buy the same
movie again on the next format in another decade. ;-)


>>>>> Nobody would buy such a thing if they knew what they were buying.
>>>> Would they?
>>> Nope.
>>>> What if someone came to you and said that we want you to build us a
>>>> network that will be used for a big trade show that will have 300 ports
>>>> of fast ethernet on it, and it will need to run IPv6 and be completely
>>>> flat - and then after the show we are just going to pitch all the
>>>> switches into the garbage so we want them as cheap as possible.
>>> I have no problem finding cheap switches with IPv6 management in them.
>>> The Juniper EX, Cisco 3700, Cisco 2900, and several other models work
>>> just fine for that.
>>>> And, by the way, they continue, every dollar you save on network
>>>> hardware we will contribute to ARIN's IPv6 education fund, so the
>>>> cheaper the gear you get, the more money goes to ARIN.
>>> Not a problem. Show me a 48 port switch cheaper than a used 2924XL
>>> and I'll be surprised.
>> Show me a piece of Cisco gear on the used market that you DON'T have
>> to spend time flashing to something more recent than code from the Dinosaur Age to be able to use. ;-)
> What do I care that I spend 5 minutes flashing the device. For a 300 port
> network, I grab a volunteer intern and show him how to do the first one.
> He does the other 8 in half a day and I'm done.
> Owen
>> Ted
>>> Owen
>>>> Ted
>>>>>> Well the fact is that if you look at the LG product blogs you WILL find
>>>>>> people doing just that.  Fortunately, you find more people telling them to STFU because that is what they get for not doing their homework.
>>>>> Sigh, yes, you can get all kinds of hostility in most consumer electronics
>>>>> or software forums. It doesn't inform or assist in the discussion and I
>>>>> wouldn't exactly hold it up as the shining example of useful public behavior.
>>>>> Owen
>>>>>> Ted
>>>>>>> Owen
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>> On Apr 14, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt<tedm at ipinc.net>     wrote:
>>>>>>>> Well, here is a video of a Transition Networks guy
>>>>>>>> saying at least one of their Ethernet switches is IPv6
>>>>>>>> capable:
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0tw_uJXv00
>>>>>>>> Now in answer to your other question as to why people
>>>>>>>> don't name names, it is because there is a saying among marketing folks:
>>>>>>>> "bad news is better than NO news"
>>>>>>>> I've also heard it expressed:
>>>>>>>> "good news is good, but bad news is also good!"
>>>>>>>> Think for a moment that this list is archived.  So a web robot
>>>>>>>> will be crawling the archive sooner or later and come across
>>>>>>>> the vendor name.  That will give the vendor a boost in the
>>>>>>>> search engines.  So by publicly naming the vendor, you
>>>>>>>> probably help them as much as you harm them.
>>>>>>>> You should also keep in mind the old adage about sales
>>>>>>>> and marketing people:
>>>>>>>> "When do you know when a marketing or sales person is lying?"
>>>>>>>> "When their lips are moving!" ;-)
>>>>>>>> Ted
>>>>>>>> On 4/14/2011 10:13 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I don't understand why people feel it necessary not to shame these
>>>>>>>>> vendors in public. I would like to remove them from my list as well.
>>>>>>>>> /Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless/
>>>>>>>>> -----Original message-----
>>>>>>>>>     *From: *Larry Ash<lar at mwtcorp.net>*
>>>>>>>>>     To: *arin-ppml at arin.net*
>>>>>>>>>     Sent: *Thu, Apr 14, 2011 16:31:25 GMT+00:00*
>>>>>>>>>     Subject: *[arin-ppml] IPV6, Not yet (OT)
>>>>>>>>>     Sorry for the distraction,
>>>>>>>>>     I send this along only to remind those of us that maintain IPV4 will
>>>>>>>>>     die shortly,
>>>>>>>>>     Before purchasing switching equipment for the customer edge on a
>>>>>>>>>     metro-ethernet
>>>>>>>>>     deployment I questioned the manufacturer about IPV6 and here was the
>>>>>>>>>     reply.
>>>>>>>>>     -----------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>     The information I received from the Product Management team is that
>>>>>>>>>     IPV6 is
>>>>>>>>>     not on the road map for this product at this time. If you need any other
>>>>>>>>>     assistance please contact us.
>>>>>>>>>     ---------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>     This is a fairly new product that has a lot of sexy features many of
>>>>>>>>>     which
>>>>>>>>>     rely on layer3 yet the manufacturer is not even planning IPV6. I did
>>>>>>>>>     inform
>>>>>>>>>     them that I am removing them from any consideration for any of their
>>>>>>>>>     products.
>>>>>>>>>     The word is still not getting to management in a meaningful way.
>>>>>>>>>     Larry Ash
>>>>>>>>>     Network Administrator
>>>>>>>>>     Mountain West Telephone
>>>>>>>>>     123 W 1st St.
>>>>>>>>>     Casper, WY 82601
>>>>>>>>>     Office 307 233-8387
>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>     PPML
>>>>>>>>>     You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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>>>>>>>>>     Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> PPML
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> PPML
>>>>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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