[arin-ppml] How bad is it really?

Dave Feuer dave at connetrix.com
Mon Jul 12 15:41:15 EDT 2010


Yes, but the question I asked still remains, how much is really out there (and is there an easy way to find out)? Between the 2 of us we have just accounted for 9 /24s are there only those 9 (yeah I know) or is it 9000, 900000 or 90000000 or an even grater number (which I think). It's not like we can find them, take them back and combine them into a /8. So that point is moot. It's just more of a hmmmmmm I wonder question.  

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
Date:  Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:38:05 -0700

>Hi Dave,
>   Well, I think there is a lot of small space like this.  To give you 
>an example take subnet, this was a direct assignment to
>Leatherman Tools, which was a customer of ours over a decade ago.  They 
>stopped using that space around 1999 but it was still routed to us.  I
>used it periodically up until 2004 until we got our /19, but of course I
>could not trade it in since we didn't own it.  I did mention it to the
>ARIN hostmaster at that time.  So it's been abandonded for 6 years as 
>well.   The last change on it's POC was from our former
>admin who applied his e-mail address for his new employer to it (for 
>some odd reason) but his new employer went bankrupt - and a domain 
>speculator now has the POC e-mail address.
>   Presumably, when ARIN fully has Section 3.6.1 of the NRPM implemented
>the domain speculator who has the domain on the POC will fail to respond 
>to the annual POC notification e-mail, and eventually ARIN will
>notice the POC record is invalid.  At that time they might paper-mail
>Leatherman Tools which is still a going concern, and still at the
>address in the POC to confirm the POC.  ARIN does have the option
>under the NRPM of marking the POC "completely and permanently abandoned 
>or otherwise illegitimate"
>but I don't know if they have developed an internal process yet to
>make such designations or whether such a process includes phone calls
>or paper mails or other mechanisms (like querying a looking glass, etc.)
>Almost certainly such an internal process will prioritize the
>invalid POC's tied to the largest allocations first.
>But you can imagine what would happen even if ARIN were to paper-mail
>Leatherman Tools on this one.  Most likely the admin at
>Leatherman will not know what the heck the paper-mail is about and
>will wrongly assume they are still using that subnet - and tell
>ARIN not to do anything about it.  So that subnet will remain tied up,
>virtually forever, or at least until Leatherman Tools goes out of
>business, which isn't likely.  It would take a 20-minute phone call from
>the ARIN hostmaster to the head MIS admin at Leatherman Tools to
>explain what is going on and get permission to take back this
>legacy resource, and that's only if the guy at Leatherman is clueful.
>   Now, the interesting thing here is that in
>the 3-4 minutes that it took for you to read this and comprehend it, the 
>global RIR's have probably assigned 10 times the amount of IPv4
>space.  In other words, it's likely that it would NEVER be 
>cost-effective for ARIN to recover this space and reallocate it.
>So ARIN probably will never get around to deeming this particular
>/24 "permanently abandoned"  Hopefully though at least it eventually
>will be marked unresponsive.  The truth is that this particular subnet
>is my "canary in the coal mine" since I know it's history and I know
>it should be marked unresponsive, when I see that happen I'll know
>ARIN is implementing 3.6.1 fully.
>   Keep in mind that Section 3.6.1 requires ARIN to publish a list of
>invalid POCS, so we should have in a year or two a list of subnets
>that are "ripe for mining" as they say.  I think that most of the
>community believes that there isn't a lot of this space out
>there.  I would also predict that if ARIN comes back with the
>equivalent of 5-10 /8's worth of "invalid POC" space that there
>will quickly be support for further IPv4 reclamation activities.
>On 7/12/2010 10:49 AM, Dave Feuer wrote:
>> While cleaning up some old DNS records (again) I took a look at some of our
>> old address space. 2  x /23s from 2 providers. I did a quick whois and both
>> are still pointing to us. One we have not used since early 2001 the other
>> since late 2004. I did some tests and one of them still routes to the last
>> hop before it hit us.
>> Then I took a look at the records for a client with a /22 that we managed
>> the DNS for. I don't know how long he has not had the IP space but it's been
>> at least 3 years and more likely closer to or over 4 years. Still pointing
>> to him (and his company no longer even exists) and still routing to the last
>> hop before him.
>> How much space is out there and routed and going no place? Is there any way
>> to find out? It's more of a question to satisfy my curiosity but I think it
>> would be interesting to know.
>> -Dave
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