[arin-ppml] [arin-discuss] IPv4 allocation conundrum

Sat Apr 17 14:45:52 EDT 2010

Randy,

This seems like a legitimate problem that could be addressed via a  
policy change, but given how close we are to depletion, any viable  
solution for IPv4 would need to work in a post-depletion transfer- 
market world. Do you have any specific suggestions for changes to the  
NRPM that would fix this?

If so, please go ahead and submit a policy proposal, and the AC will  
be happy to work with you to make sure it does what you want without  
too many unintended side effects. Or, if you don't really know where  
to start, we can work with you to draft it. I'll be happy to assist.

Will you be participating (in person or remotely) at the ARIN Public  
Policy meeting in Toronto this week? I'd encourage you to take a look  
at the draft policies under discussion with an eye toward how this  
kind of thing should work in IPv6.

Thanks,
Scott

On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:53 AM, Randy Carpenter <rcarpen at network1.net>  
wrote:

>
> I think the fact that ARIN policy states that we need to renumber  
> from private to public, and then renumber again is completely  
> stupid. Allocations from ARIN should be on a *needs* basis only.
>
>
>
> -Randy
>
> --
> | Randy Carpenter
> | V.P., IT Services
> | First Network Group, Inc.
> | Wapakoneta, OH
> | (419)739-9240, x1
> --
>
>
> ----- "Lee Howard" <spiffnolee at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to you both for bringing this to the mailing list.  If we need
>> to make
>> policy changes, we should move it to the PPML.
>>
>> Randy, I'm interested to understand if the upstream providers told  
>> you
>> any
>> reason for not providing address space?  In North America, that's
>> unusual.
>>
>> Jacob, I'm interested in your topology.  I don't understand your need
>> for
>> /23 and /24.
>>
>> Generally, renumbering needs to be easier.  It's a major point in  
>> this
>> thread,
>> in the IPv6 NAT thread, and in many proposals for smaller
>> Provider-Independent
>> allocations.  I see a business opportunity for someone to write an
>> address
>> management system that will provide updated configuration files for
>> common
>> firewalls, DNS servers (forward and reverse), ACLs, VPN consoles, and
>> monitoring systems.
>>
>> Lee
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Jacob Epstein <jake at recol.com>
>>> To: Randy Carpenter <rcarpen at network1.net>
>>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>>> Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 5:28:26 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] IPv4 allocation conundrum
>>>
>>> Hi Randy,
>>
>> I am in a similar situation, but already have a /20 allocation.
>>> I can use more public space, but due to our applications which need
>> large blocks
>>> (/23 and /24) we end up with open space that we can not chop up and
>> reallocate.
>>> For example our broadband Static IP Space or hosting space which are
>> flat and
>>> not subnetted. Although we have returned /21 of space to our
>> upstreames since
>>> our first allocation in 2003, we have been denied based on the 80%
>> use of all IP
>>> space versus allocations based on routing and application.
>>
>> FYI, we
>>> orginally applied for a /19 but were advised to return /21 of space
>> and reaply
>>> which we did but we denied due to change in policies. So is life!
>>
>> My
>>> understanding is that your client should be able qualify for their
>> first Arin
>>> allocation. They should then work on moving upstream provided IP
>> over to the
>>> Allocation so that they can return upstream space. I haven't seen a
>> rule on
>>> this, but its is wise to do so in case you lose or want to change
>> upstream
>>> providers. Many of us change upstream providers to get better deals
>> or move into
>>> an Exchange Point (IX) peering arrangement.
>>
>> Has your customer looked at
>>> the end user allocation process. Here is a link
>>
>>
>>>
>> href="https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ 
>> ipv4_initial_assign.html"
>>
>>> target=_blank
>>>> https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_initial_assign.html
>>
>> I
>>> did try this in order to open a new datacenter with a /23, and could
>> not get
>>> that based on utilization of the current /20. It seems the process
>> doesn't care
>>> about the need. So to get us going, I requested a /23 from a new
>> upstream
>>> provider to get our business. Later on after we are operational, we
>> will migrate
>>> some of our /20 allocation, but its not going to be easy on current
>> customers
>>> that will have to be assigned new IP addresses. (DNS Changes, VPN
>> Changes,
>>> Security (Access Control) changes. One customer has 80 remote
>>> offices!
>>
>> But it seems to me that there has to be a way for smaller
>>> providers with no allocations to obtain blocks and then retun
>> upstream blocks as
>>> part of the process.
>>
>> Seems that if not, smaller providers starting up or
>>> in our case focused on conservation should go away while the large
>> telcos and
>>> broadband provides either "suck the pool dry" or rest on large
>> allocations they
>>> got years ago.
>>
>> So something sounds strange since need upstream blocks to
>>> get into the business. The Arin contact seems to be saying no one
>> gets their
>>> first allocation based on your customer's scenario as I read it
>> which is to get
>>> the first allocation. Maybe they do not qualify for /19 but could
>> for /20 or
>>> /21.
>>
>> FYI, we have been working on IPv6. The new data center will be
>>> native IPv6.
>>
>> Good Luck,
>>
>>
>> Jake
>>
>> -- Jacob Epstein, Chief 
>>> Technology Officer
>> RECOL, LLC - An Internet Solutions Provider
>> web:
>>> http://www.recol.net
>> email:
>>> href="mailto:jake at recol.com">jake at recol.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Randy Carpenter
>>> wrote:
>>> I am working with a new customer who is in a bit of a
>>> pickle...
>>>
>>> They are an ISP and VoIP provider whose upstream
>>> provider wouldn't (or couldn't) give them many addresses.
>>> They resorted
>>> to using NATed private IPs for most of their network, which is
>> causing problems
>>> for their end user customers.
>>>
>>> Now that we are working with
>>> them, I am trying to find a solution to get them public IPs. They
>> are also soon
>>> to be multi-homed (They have 2 connections, but no BGP yet). As an
>> ISP, it would
>>> be best for them to have PI space.
>>>
>>> The issue is that one of the
>>> requirements for getting PI space from ARIN is that you are already
>> using Public
>>> space that was assigned to you from an upstream provider. I spoke
>> with someone
>>> from ARIN who says there is no way around this. The need around a
>> /19 of space,
>>> and I cannot find any way to get it for them. The upstream providers
>> refuse to
>>> give them any.
>>>
>>> What can be done about this?  Would would
>>> there be a requirement of already using someone else's IP space to
>> get your own?
>>> That seems like a complete waste of time, effort, money, and IPs!
>>>
>>>
>>> -Randy
>>>
>>> --
>>> | Randy Carpenter
>>> | V.P., IT
>>> Services
>>> | First Network Group, Inc.
>>> | RHCE
>>> |
>>> (419)739-9240, x1
>>> --
>>>
>>>
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