[arin-ppml] 2008-3 Support

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

I live in Portland OR

Portland Community Media is not a community network provider.
Their mission is to do television broadcasting of various community
events.

Personal Telco Project is also not a community wireless network
provider.  They basically are a group that goes to people who want
to host a free wireless node and help them setup open-wrt on a cheap
router.  The people have to provide the DSL or cable or whatever line
from whatever ISP they get service from.

Your explanation is interesting but you did not say if you attempted
to get IPv6 from your $165/mth 1MB upstream provider before going to
ARIN.  Did you?

Frankly your explanation here is in my mind a textbook case of how
NOT to deploy IPv6.  So, let's say ARIN gives you an IPv6 block.  How
are you going to connect that to the native IPv6 on the Internet?  By
tunneling?  If that is the case, don't you see that when you setup an
IPv6 tunnel to the IPv6 Internet, that your removing absolutely all
incentive for your $165/mnth upstream provider to actually make an
effort to support IPv6?  Your also removing all incentive for your OWN
organization to threaten or cajole or apply any pressure to your
upstream provider to actually move to IPv6.  So likely you will never
do it.  How much better for the rest of the Internet if you were to
go to your $165/mth upstream and tell them that unless they offer you
IPv6 in a year, you will go to one of their competitors!

I wish you guys were here in Portland OR.  I'd gladly sell you a 
1MBx1MB/mnth DSL circuit and give you a nice IPv6 block for $165/mth.
I'd even give you a nice IPv4 block if you can provide utilization
justification!!!

As an ISP admin who HAS spent the effort to get IPv6 going, it irks
me when customers in my market who want IPv6 go to one of my competitors
who DON'T offer it, and then tunnel, when they could come to me and
get native.  Those customers must think they are oh-so progressive since
they are doing IPv6 tunnels to Hurricane Electric or some such.  Well 
why the heck don't they actually support an ISP who has spent the money
to do it right?!?!?

Ted


Joshua King wrote:
> Sorry to be late weighing in on the proposal in this whole process.
> 
> I was partly responsible for the initial version of this proposal, and 
> it grew out of a long, iterative process. Initially, my organization, 
> Acorn Active Media Foundation, attempted to get an IPv6 address 
> allocation from ARIN that we could experiment with and find uses for 
> across several disparate systems that we managed across a collection of 
> local, technology-oriented non-profits that we co-managed the computer 
> infrastructure for; these organizations would probably be considered 
> community networks. They include Chambana.net, a community co-location 
> and hosting co-operative that runs a collection of servers that host 
> mailinglists, websites, email, and other services for dozens of 
> community organizations; the Champaign-Urbana Community Wireless Network 
> (CUWiN), which develops open-source wireless mesh software and deploys 
> networks both within Champaign-Urbana, Illinois where it's located and 
> within other communities around the country; and the Urbana-Champaign 
> Independent Media Center (UCIMC), a large community media, arts, and 
> journalism center which runs public computer labs as well and electronic 
> media creation training along with its other projects. We wanted to get 
> an IPv6 allocation to see what we could do with it, for a number of 
> reasons. We were paying $165/month for a 1Mb upstream connection and 4 
> "sticky" public IPv4 addresses with donations, and couldn't afford 
> anything better (nothing was available that was less expensive, all of 
> our equipment donated, all of our work volunteer, and no budget). We 
> used 4 semi-static addresses to provide public services upstream from 10 
> servers and 80+ wireless nodes, and hoped that getting IPv6 addresses 
> could allow us to better manage our systems for those that supported 
> IPv6. We wanted to experiment with how global addressing space might 
> allow us to experiment with CUWiN's mobile wireless systems, or tie 
> together multiple networks in different locations: CUWiN manages 
> networks in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois; Homer, Illinois; and Mesa Verda, 
> California, and is allied with Seattle Wireless, NYC Wireless, Wireless 
> Philadelphia, and Open Air Boston; UCIMC is the global hub of over 200 
> independent journalism centers worldwide. And since IPv6 is presumably 
> the future of the Internet, we wanted to start supporting it as soon as 
> possible (our current upstream provider didn't support IPv6).
> 
> But when we tried to apply for space, ARIN didn't seem sure what to do 
> with us. So it was recommmended that we put in a policy proposal, which 
> would provide a niche that would encourage community networks like the 
> ones that we represented to apply for space, by letting them know it was 
> possible. I honestly think that this proposal would be beneficial, to 
> the organizations like those above and others like them. Even if it 
> doesn't eventually result in a policy that reduces fees, I think it will 
> let community networks know that there's a place for them in the greater 
> Internet community.
> 
> A common criticism of community networks is that they are difficult to 
> define; I think that that is unfortunately true. It's much like the 
> phrase "community organization," commonly used in organizing and 
> non-profit policy, that people don't really know what it means. I 
> hesitate to refer to Wikipedia, but I feel like they give a pretty good 
> if broad definition of community network: 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_network/. It is however a 
> subjective definition dependent upon purpose and motivation within the 
> group, rather than something that can be nailed down under budget, staff 
> size, or fiscal status. Thus I agree with the need for discretion within 
> the AC on qualifying organizations.
> 
> However, here's a list of some community networks that I know of (sorry 
> there are a lot from Illinois, and a large wireless bias; those are just 
> regions and fields I'm involved with). Maybe they can provide an example:
> Acorn Active Media Foundation
> UCIMC
> CUWiN
> Chambana.net
> Tribal Digital Village, provides network services and outreach on 
> California reservations
> Prairienet, a community access project and dial-up ISP sponsored by the 
> University of Illinois
> Seattle Wireless, a community wireless network
> Personal Telco Project, a community wireless network based in Portland
> Portland Community Media, a community technology center (CTC)
> Denver Open Media, a CTC and public access station in Denver that 
> deploys open-source publishing platforms in other public access stations
> Mountain Area Information Network, a CTC, public radio and television 
> station, and ISP in Asheville, NC
> Ile Sans Fil, a community wireless network and volunteer open-source 
> software developer in Montreal
> Austin Wireless, a community wireless network
> Wireless Philadelphia, first a public metro wifi network, then defunct 
> commercial network, now getting restarted as community-oriented again
> Public Internet Project, digital divide outreach non-profit and 
> community wireless network
> NetEquality, outreach and activism, vendor of discount wireless equipment
> 
> -- 
> Josh King
> --
> Treasurer, Acorn Active Media Foundation
> Systems Engineer, Chambana.net and CUWiN
> Technical Coordinator, UCIMC
> Adjunct Technologist, Open Technology Initiative
> 
> 
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