[arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2009-2: Depleted IPv4 reserves

[Ron Cleven]

Paul,

Thank you.  Your response seems entirely reasonable.  Any large ISP 
would, of course, focus on the logistics of transitioning their 
residential customers first (cuz that is where nearly all of their IP 
addresses are), to reach a point where new customers would be IPv6, then 
gradually migrate older customers to IPv6, using whatever scheme works 
best for them.  Once this is done, as you say, the pressure is off, 
because there would be no need for new IPv4 allocations.

Hence, I can only conclude that TELUS has yet to figure out how to 
accommodate their residential customers in the context of IPv6 yet. 
Otherwise, they would have no need for any new IPv4 allocations, and 
Matthew would have no reason to protest.

I am sorry to pick on Matthew, because I probably agree with him on his 
ultimate point.  However, what this all leads to, of course, is whether 
or not ANY large ISP's have begun large-scale roll-out of new broadband 
(cable/DSL) residential customers in such a fashion that those new 
customers are forced to use IPv6?

If that has started happening, have the technical details of the "model" 
been widely published or are they a closely guarded secret?  If it HAS 
started happening, then the depletion of IPv4 should be a moot point.

If it has not started happening, is it because the large ISP's have not 
figured out how to make it work "cleanly" yet, because that is the only 
reason I can imagine?

I understand my comments might sound naive, but if no such "clean" 
transitional model exists, then we's in a world of hurt.

Ron



Paul Stewart wrote:

> While we are not large by any stretch, we do have *well* over 100
> network elements - our core and distribution are all dual stack today.
> Our plan is that any new customer deployments (starting middle of this
> year) would involve dual stack to the customer premise.  Then we would
> work our way back within a year of starting to run dual-stack at all
> existing locations.
> 
> By putting it into our workflow of a standard deployment and then
> focusing efforts on converting existing elements to dual stack, we feel
> we can easily do this within a year.
> 
> With dual stack everywhere, then the "pressure is off" from our
> perspective to avoid any sudden panic situations...
> 
> Just my two cents worth...
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
> Behalf Of Matthew Wilder
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 3:42 PM
> To: Ron Cleven; ARIN PPML
> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Draft Policy 2009-2: Depleted IPv4 reserves
> 
> Hi Ron,
> 
> I will give you the benefit of the doubt here.  In case there was the
> slightest ambiguity with my comments, I will clarify my statements.
> 
> I did not at any point say that TELUS would be unable to transition to
> IPv6, so hold back your shock for a moment.  I suggested that TELUS
> might be unable to transition certain services to IPv6 before IPv4
> exhaust.  At large organizations, there are too many inter-dependencies
> to make everything happen at once.  And I doubt there is an organization
> out there with more than 100 network elements who plans to switch off
> IPv4 before IPv4 address exhaust.  I hope that doesn't trouble you too
> much.
> 
> Cheers,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Cleven wrote:
> 
> 
>>I have read over and over and over in this list that IPv6 is "the
> 
> solution" to all the IPv4 depletion problems.  I have also seen tons of
> posts that explicitly or implicitly assert that only irresponsible ISP's
> will not be ready to go with IPv6 by the time IPv4 runs out.  After all,
> we have all known this day has been coming for the last decade.  Yet,
> you seem to saying that your large ISP who should be a leader in this
> movement will be unable to make the transition in time.  I'm shocked!
> 
> 
>>Are there any other large ISP's monitoring this list who are the least
> 
> bit concerned about the transition, or is Telus the only one who can't
> seem to figure this out?  Perhaps one of the large ISP's who has
> everything all figured out could share all their technical information
> to put Telus' mind to rest?
> 
> Matthew Wilder wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ron wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Stephen's comments are spot on.  The large ISP's are the very ones who
> 
> 
>>>have both the resources and clout to make the IPv6 transition happen.
>>>If they are unwilling or unable to do so, what does that say about the
> 
> 
>>>viability of ever making that transition?  Mr. Wilder doth protest too
> 
> 
>>>much.
>>
>>
>>My explicit role in my organization is to ensure adequate IP
> 
> Addressing to support service growth and new service introduction.  I
> believe without a doubt that the only way I will be successful in that
> mandate is to position IPv6 as the vehicle so that the IP Addresses are
> there.  
> 
>>My organization is taking the steps necessary to get that transition
> 
> happening, so we are not unwilling.  I can tell you that with certain
> services, we might well be unable to transition before IPv4 exhaust
> hits, but my focus is to transition the high growth services.  I want to
> make sure that the other services which may take longer to transition
> have the IP Addresses available, as I am sure every other admin POC out
> there is trying to ensure.
> 
>>I don't protest for the sake of demanding unfair privileges on the
> 
> behalf of large ISPs.  I protest a policy that says everyone can have
> their needs completely met except for one group, which can't even have a
> reasonable fraction of their need met.
> 
>>Respectfully,
>>Matthew Wilder
> 
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