[arin-ppml] SWIPs & IPv6

Ted Mittelstaedt tedm at ipinc.net
Tue Dec 1 14:18:27 EST 2009

Danny McPherson wrote:
> On Dec 1, 2009, at 9:33 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> I think it would be foolish to assume this.  You bought into
>> this naieve notion that SWIP data is mainly of benefit to OTHER people,
>> promulgated by all the bonehead privacy-terrorists out there who think
>> that a SWIP filed on them will let the identity thieves steal
>> them blind.
> No, I'm assuming people are lazy.  You seem to be more
> optimistic.  It had nothing to do with identity thieves, 
> the bar is much lower there..
>> In reality, SWIPs aren't for the rest of the Internet, they help
>> make YOUR job easier.
> ...
>> So, for LIRS that want to pee all over themselves, well
>> then don't file SWIPS.  In fact I ENCOURAGE IT STRONGLY because
>> then all I have to do is null-route your ENTIRE AS, I don't even
>> have to waste CPU cycles blocking just the obnoxious traffic
>> from Wonkulating.
> Right, you'll do this until someone that YOUR customers 
> wants to reach is blocked, and then YOU will remove YOUR 
> senseless null route... 

Nope, that's not the way things work on the Internet and there
are many examples.  If I'm large then I can do as I please, for
example when Verizon.net instituted "call backs" in e-mail it
pissed off a lot of customers, and some left, but Verizon ignored
their complaints and so everyone else on the Internet ended up
having to make sure their e-mail systems were compatible.

If I'm small then I can do as I please as well unless the
other network I don't like is large, like a Google or some such.
If my network is getting attacked by a smaller subnet then
all my customers are affected - if I block that network, then only
one or 2 of my customers might notice, and if they leave me and
go elsewhere, then I no longer have ANY incentive to stop blocking
the remote network.

You see, when running an ISP you always have to sacrifice the
needs of the few for the needs of the many, that's ISP operations 101.
Otherwise you end up pissing off the majority of your customers and
they all leave, then your out of business.  This is why for example
that Comcast limits speed on file sharing - they know that they would
lose a few customers, but the majority would just grumble but give in
to it.

Trust me I've seen this before, and there are always two sides.  If
I null-route you and it affects one of my customers who wants to
reach one of your customers, and I dig in my heels and refuse to
rescind my null route, and you dig in your heels and refuse to reign in
the abuser on your network who is attacking me, then that leaves only
one choice to your customer and my customer - one of them will have to
quit service with one of us if they want to connect with each other.
Assuming no workaround is available, then our customers will talk
amongst themselves and jointly decide which one of them will quit
service.  And I have found that if I have good reasons for instituting
my block, and make absolutely sure that my customer clearly understands
them, that I have a 50% chance that I'll win, and retain my customer,
and you will lose.  And, if you don't take the time
to carefully outline your position to your customer, and just give them
the usual BS explanations, then my chance of winning easily jumps to
80% or more.

  But that's a local policy decision,
> to each their own...


I have plenty of documented instances like the collapse of AGIS, and
the behavior of my customers, that more than satisfactorily
prove to me that other networks that engage in irresponsible
behavior have no power to put us out of business.

It's only when I act irresponsibly that I'm threatened.  Such as
NOT giving you the chance to shut down your
customer who was causing trouble.  But, if I GIVE you the chance,
and you DON'T do it, then -I- and responsible, -YOU- are not,
and I'm going to win the majority of our battles.

Meaning that over time your going to end up with all the
crappy customers who like to beat you over the head with
ultimatums, I will end up with the good customers who want
a tight ship.

Sorry you don't like this, but this is how the world really


>> Probably because of the same reason that a cursory search
>> won't find any discussions about the pros and cons of
>> staring straight into the sun for an hour at high noon.
> I suspect I could find a discussion on that, actually..
> At least part of your response was worth reading,
> -danny
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