[arin-ppml] [a-p] Revised -- Policy Proposal 2009-4: IPv4Recovery

[Tom Vest]

On Apr 20, 2009, at 6:07 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Vest [mailto:tvest at pch.net]
>> Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 1:00 PM
>> To: Keith Medcalf
>> Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; Cliff; Jeff Aitken; arin ppml
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] [a-p] Revised -- Policy Proposal
>> 2009-4: IPv4Recovery
>>
>>
>> On Apr 18, 2009, at 9:48 AM, Keith Medcalf wrote:
>>
>>>>> I agree.  I have said before that ARIN should be like the
>> automotive
>>>>> title group in the state governmnent (at least like they do it in
>>>>> MD)  Party A wants to sell a car, party B want to buy.  Party A
>>>>> signs over his title to Party B and the state, upon deciding the
>>>>> party A title is valid, issues a new title to party B and
>> collects
>>>>> the appropriate sales tax (ARIN
>>>>> fees)  Let the free market work within the confines of ARIN
>>>>> validating the legitimacy of the two parties claims. (i.e.
>>>>> the numbers were party A's to transfer and party B
>> justified their
>>>>> need per standard ARIN policy)
>>>
>>>> The problem here is that the automotive title group in the state
>>>> government does NOT own the cars that it's titling.  Thus
>> this is a
>>>> very flawed analogy.
>>>
>>>> A more accurate analogy is that ARIN is the owner of a large,
>>>> desirable (maybe the rents are cheap) apartment complex with many
>>>> apartments.  Apartment dwellers may want very much to "sell"
>>>> their apartments when they are moving out to new would-be
>> apartment
>>>> dwellers who want to live there, and the would-be
>> apartment dwellers
>>>> may be very willing to "buy" them.  But, the dwellers don't own or
>>>> have control over the apartments.
>>>
>>> It is an ABSOLUTELY FLAWLESSLY PERFECT analogy as you just pointed
>>> out.  The Car title registrar does not and never did own
>> the cars --
>>> all they have an interest in is the registering and
>> ensuring that each
>>> Car is uniquely registered to only one responsible owner.  That is
>>> precisely how IP Addresses work.  ARIN does not own them
>> (in fact, no
>>> one owns them).  ARINs job is simply to ensure that the "not their
>>> property" is uniquely registered to the party who is resposible for
>>> it.
>>>
>>> As for worrying about selling the same thing multiple times over to
>>> different parties, this happens in the meatspace world all
>> the time.
>>> In fact, it has been a meatspace problem for such a loooong loooong
>>> time that there is an expression for it in ancient and long dead
>>> romance languages:  CAVEAT EMPTOR
>>>
>>> Schmucks and schmeels sell the same HOUSE multiple times to
>> different
>>> parties and take deposits from all the simultaneous buyers and then
>>> abscond with the proceeds.  Usually they didn't even own the thing
>>> being sold in the first place.
>>>
>>> This analogy is also flawless!
>>>
>>> CAVEAT EMPTOR!
>>
>> The apartment complex is a perfect analogy IFF:
>>
>> 1. The numbered apartments have no fixed geographic
>> coordinates, and can move at will, in whole or independently
>> on a room by room basis, and do so invisibly to all but a
>> handful of the residents of other, equally invisible
>> apartment and apartment fragments -- i.e., those who are
>> willing to permit one of the free-floating chunks to "settle down"
>> again next-door.
>>
>> 2. The apartment dwellers themselves may only have visibility
>> into the specific room(s) that they're actively occupying  at
>> any given time; squatters may take up residence in one of the
>> spare rooms at any time, or room pirates may attempt to
>> unilaterally relocate their occupied fragment to another part
>> of the complex, or another building altogether.
>>
>> 3. Once the property parts ways, in whole or in part, with
>> its last "authoritatively known" coordinates, the only
>> assurance that a potential buyer -- or potential neighbor --
>> will be able to obtain on that property at any time
>> thereafter will have to come via -- literally -- *blind*
>> trust, i.e., willing acceptance of non- verifiable,
>> non-falsifiable self-assertions and heresay.
>>
>> 4. It's a rowdy building, with known crooks in residence
>> (somewhere), and quite a few residents who occasionally leave
>> the bath water running or leave something cooking on their
>> stovetop all night. When your own apartment fills with smoke
>> or water, or something worse, if it's not coming from one of
>> your known immediate neighbors, the exact source may be
>> unknowable. Of course, being a fully sovereign unit yourself,
>> you  can always just cut your own neighbor off... unless that
>> neighbor happens to provide you with the only exit out of
>> your own unit.
>>
>
> Hum.. Well, you just described a typical college dormitory... ;-)

Agreed, if you live in an invisible, n-dimensional, dynamically self- 
(re)-organizing dormitory...

>> The apartment analogy does have one important feature in
>> common with the auto registration analogy: in either case
>> there is no independent mechanism or authority capable of
>> monitoring levels of compliance with any registration rules
>> that are still deemed to be important, and no insightful
>> (i.e., capable of seeing/determining the facts
>> independently) entity to act has a *passive* deterrent, much
>> less as an active authority capable of investigating  and,
>> if/when necessary, enforcing rules.
>>
>
> Huh?  Incorrect by all counts both in the analogies and with ARIN.

Incorrect on all counts for ARIN *today.*

ARIN currently has no active enforcement power that is not contingent  
on its centrality in the (subsequent) allocation process. But that's  
not as important as the passive "pro-compliance" mechanisms that are  
also fundamentally tied up with ARIN's central place in the allocation  
process...

Without that centrality, ARIN also has no capability to act as a nice,  
passive but effective deterrent -- e.g., the dorm proctor who often  
sees/knows when something "really bad" is going on, and who can remind  
the rowdier residents that they need to follow the safety rules or  
else "somebody might call the cops."

Also, given the independent mobility of the individual "dorm rooms,"  
ARIN will no longer possess, or be able to claim to possess, an  
authoritative view of the dorm's floorplan or residents; nobody will.  
Perhaps someone from each room will always, accurately, and promptly  
report any/every relevant change that takes place, and do this  
consistently forevermore, but how would ARIN know? How would anybody  
know?  All you can hope for is the perpetual non-occurrence of some  
bad thing that would reveal the truth (c.f., the way we recently  
learned about how the financial sector works).

You already clearly indicated that you know how rowdy the building is;  
would you bet on it?

All I'm saying is if the community wants to support transfers, then  
the community might want to find something more effective that faith  
in a sudden, selective, and vast improvement in human nature to make  
them work.

TV


>> Bottom line: analogies, even self-serving ones, have to make sense.
>> This one missies the mark by a mile.
>>
>
> As I said, a "more accurate" analogy.  I never claimed it was perfect.
>
> Ted
>