[arin-ppml] ARIN releases new version of the Legacy Registration

Cliff Bedore cliffb at cjbsys.bdb.com
Wed Sep 24 14:05:21 EDT 2008

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net 
> > [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Cliff Bedore
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 7:40 AM
> > To: PPML
> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN releases new version of the 
> > Legacy Registration
> > 
> > 
> > I haven't seen this discussed in a while and I still see the "no fall 
> > back to status quo" as a problem.  I think if ARIN would change the 
> > "terminate for convenience" by the legacy holder so that the address 
> > space would revert back whatever the status is at that time for those 
> > who didn't sign the LRSA.
> > 
> The problem is that the legacy space HAS NO STATUS at the current time.
> You are essentially asking for a LSRA that would change the status of
> the legacy space, even if later on the agreement was terminated.
> Right now it's "undefined"  You want a terminated agreement to change
> it to "officially assigned"

Actually what I said was it would go back to the status of the non-signers of
the LRSA.  If that is considered undefined, that's what it would go back to.
I tend to think the status is maybe "special circumstances"  Those who use
their space and have up to date info are being served by ARIN.  You can lookup and I'm in the database and ARIN says as of now they don't plan
to change that if I don't sign. As per the LRSA page at ARIN

"Note that ARIN will not reclaim unutilized address space from legacy holders
who sign this RSA, nor will ARIN attempt to take away legacy resources from
organizations who choose not to sign it. However, signing the Legacy RSA
contractually locks in a set of rights, and thus reduces the risk of future
change to a minimum."


> > My thinking is as follows.  ARIN is trying to get Legacy 
> > address holders 
> > to sign an LRSA.  Many have indicated a willingness to do so under 
> > certain conditions.  It appears that one of the major 
> > stumbling blocks 
> > for many Legacy holders is being able to "drop out" at a 
> > later time for 
> > unspecified reasons.
> > 
> > Let's look at what happens if that were allowed.  Far more legacies 
> > appear to be willing to sign and ARIN would have accomplished what it 
> > wanted to do.  Assume at some time in the future, some of the legacy 
> > holders wanted to terminate "for convenience". If at that 
> > time, they are 
> > allowed to drop back to whatever services ARIN provides to 
> > non-signing 
> > legacy holders, it would be as if they never signed. If ARIN 
> > has at that 
> > time stopped providing any services to non-signers, they are in deep 
> > doo-doo and they will probably not terminate for convenience. 
> No, they would just complain that the agreement's "reversion clause"
> implied that "things would go back to the way they were" and thus
> ARIN would be obligated to continue providing services to them.
> >  If ARIN 
> > is providing at that time what they provide now in terms of services, 
> > ARIN will have had at least some time of membership and updated 
> > records.  Better than having never signed.
> > 
> > If fewer legacy holders sign up because of the more 
> > restrictive clauses, 
> > ARIN will have lost funds and better contact information and 
> > they will 
> > be in a worse position than the scernario above.
> >  
> ARIN gets hardly any funds at all if a LSRA is signed.
> > If in the first scenario, ARIN does a good job of 
> > stewardship, I can't 
> > believe any who signed the LRSA would want to drop out and 
> > ARIN is in a 
> > better position to recover truly abandoned IPv4.
> >  
> > I think most legacy people feel they should not end up worse off than 
> > the non-signers if they do sign
> I agree.  However, MANY people who HAVE signed the LSRA do NOT feel that
> they are worse off - yet they were once legacy people.
> How do you reconcile that Joe Blow who signed feels better off than
> Sally Schmoe who didn't sign the same document because she
> feels it makes her worse off?  It's the same dang document!!!
> It's a matter of interpretation.  When people like you make statements
> like:
> "...legacy people feel they should not end up worse off than 
>  the non-signers if they do sign..."
> you are simply perpetuating a falsehood that somehow, signing the LSRA
> makes a legacy holder worse off than they are now.
> > and I think that one clause 
> > makes them 
> > feel that way.  If you want, think of it as a "no fault 
> > divorce" where 
> > each party leaves with what they came in with.
> >
> This is a false analogy.  An accurate analogy would be is if right now,
> ARIN were to STOP providing whois for legacy holders who hadn't signed,
> and give them to option of getting something - continued whois services -
> by signing.
> The legacy holders would then be "getting" something - whois - out of the
> agreement, just as 2 single people are "getting" something - financial
> and social security - out of the marriage agreement.
> If a divorce happens then the married couple are "losing" something - the
> marriage, just as an opt-out clause in a LSRA would have the legacy holder
> "lose" something - whois.
> But right now the legacy holders are ALREADY getting whois.  Just as 2 
> unmarried singles are "getting something" when they live together.
> Thus, the difficulty of getting legacy holders to sign the LSRA is no
> different than the difficulty of getting unmarried singles living together
> to sign the marriage document.
> Both of them are already getting what they want out of the relationship,
> - so why sign?  Sex or whois - it's the same thing in this analogy. ;-)
> Ted

Cliff Bedore
7403 Radcliffe Dr. College Park MD 20740
cliffb at cjbsys.bdb.com http://www.bdb.com
Amateur Radio Call Sign W3CB For info on ham radio, http://www.arrl.org/

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