[arin-ppml] The Library Book Approach to IPv4 Scarcity

Kevin Kargel kkargel at polartel.com
Wed Oct 29 14:59:50 EDT 2008


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Mittelstaedt [mailto:tedm at ipinc.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:14 PM
> To: Kevin Kargel; ppml at arin.net
> Subject: RE: [arin-ppml] The Library Book Approach to IPv4 Scarcity
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
> > [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Kevin Kargel
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 6:52 AM
> > To: ppml at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] The Library Book Approach to IPv4 Scarcity
> > 
> > 
> > Rants first, then content.. Top posted because it didn't fit well 
> > inline..
> > 
> > What you are proposing could easily turn in to an excessive annual 
> > manpower requirement for an ISP.  It could easily be forgotten or 
> > mis-assigned with terrible consequences.
> > 
> > We have enough red tape in the IT world already.  Don't create more.
> > 
> > It amazes me how many people feel free to spend my money.  
> > "Do what I want or I will send you a bill"..
> 
> And, yet you see nothing hypocritical about your own 
> participation in a public forum that's intended to create 
> rules that cost other people money.

I see absolutely nothing hypocritical..  I see part of my role as advocate
for others like me to watchdog excessive rules and unecessary fees..  This
is how our community works.. I also do not accept that the purpose of this
forum is to make rules that cost money, that is rather disengenious..

The purpose of this forum is information exchange, and to provide a venue
where the community can work cooperatively for the betterment of the
community.  Another of my favorite rants you have heard many times --
"Cooperative Anarchy Works!"
 
Followed closely by--  "Evil Thrives When Good People Do Nothing"

> 
> When orgs are using numbering on the Internet they are using 
> a public resource and the public has a right to tell them how 
> to use it.
> This is no different than the Law & Order people who tell me 
> that I can't speed 80Mph on the freeway, even though I know 
> what I'm doing and could do so safely.

Umm, I am a member of ARIN, ARIN *is* the public..  This is a cooperative
effort, not a government..  ARIN cannot throw you in jail, ARIN does not
regulate your morality.  Following ARIN's rules is a behavior you choose
because it works better than the alternative.  Following governmental laws
is a behavior that is forced upon you.  If you choose not to follow
Government Laws you will eventually be removed from society.  While there
are limited corralaries there is a *huge* difference between the two..  

> 
> When the day comes that those conservatives let me do what I 
> want on the freeway then I'll listen to them when they tell 
> me that I can't force them to accept flag burning as legal.
> 
> I disagree with the proposal myself but I am not trying to 
> argue that the community has no right to institute it if the 
> community decides it's in the best interest.

The "Community" has every right to agree on rules and behaviors..  This is
the very basis of the concept of cooperative anarchy that has so far let the
internet function as well as it has..  

> 
> > There is
> > nothing wrong with charging for a service rendered, I don't mind 
> > paying for something that I get value from, but please keep 
> niggling 
> > fingers out of my budget.
> > 
> > There is already a requirement to keep contact information 
> updated.  
> > ARIN can already use existing policy to reclaim abandoned 
> space.  ARIN 
> > is very good at what they do and there are real reasons 
> they have or 
> > have not taken action on these networks.
> > 
> > As I have commented other places, if we want to restrict 
> abandoned or 
> > bogon networks a much better idea would be to publish the contact 
> > update date in the network record.  This data could be used by the 
> > publishers of various bogon lists that the community can take 
> > advantage of to prune routing tables.  If the community is actively 
> > concerned ARIN could publish an "official" bogon list that could be 
> > incorporated into routing decisions. This would actually 
> not hurt the 
> > network operators who are legitimately using stale contact networks 
> > for peering connections, and would allow the community to protect 
> > itself from hijackers.  As I think about it I am surprised there is 
> > not an official ARIN bogon list already, it seems like a natural 
> > function.  Maybe it does exist and I am ignorant of it.  
> Please feel 
> > free to educate me.
> > 
> 
> I an concerned that a bogon list is counterproductive, the 
> point is that when IPv4 runout happens, there will be much 
> incentive to identify and reclaim abandonded IPv4 space.  If 
> a subnet is discovered to be hijacked, then instead of 
> listing it on a bogon list, it should be immediately 
> reclaimed and reassigned.

You don't think it would be productive to have some mechanism in place to
restrict functionality of bogon networks in the period between reclamation
and reassignment?  I suspect that the norm for that transition will take
some period of time..  Not all unassigned space is issued the moment it is
available.  At this moment I believe there is considerable unassigned space
that doesn't need to be in our routing tables.

> 
> Creating an official bogon list may hinder the ability of 
> ISP's to absorb "dirty" subnets.

> 
> The situation is the same as when you have a large city (I'll 
> pick on Detroit for example) that has a core that is rotting 
> due to abandonded buildings.  The buildings become a mess and 
> get covered with graffitti.  If the city ignores it, then you 
> end up with block after block of run-down buildings that 
> attract more graffitti and vandalism.  It's much better to 
> intitute recovery proceedings on the land, take it back to 
> public ownership, and if necessary -GIVE AWAY- the land if 
> you can't sell it, to a property owner who is willing to 
> spend the money to go in and gut the building and put 
> something new there.

Ah, but wouldn't a bogon list of bad routables be similar to the city roping
off the slum section and putting up No Trespass signs while they tear down
the old stuff (reclamation) in preperation to selling or giving it away?
This would tend to (not absolutely I agree) protect ordinary citizens by
making it inconvenient to travel in that area.  Nothing is saying some
ne-er-do-wells aren't going to ignore the signs and go there anyway
(possibly even squat there), but it would keep the majority of decent folk
out and seperated..


 
> 
> Ted
> 
> 
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