[arin-ppml] Is this more desired than a Transfer Policy? Needinput
tedm at ipinc.net
Mon Nov 17 19:08:40 EST 2008
"why it is intrinsically evil to benefit from selling addresses"
Who said there would be financial compensation to the "army of snitches?"
What your missing is a "forest view" As long as efforts are made to keep
IPv4 rolling post IPv4-runout,
those strong incentives to not give up underutilized IPv4 resources will
exist - and of course, those
strong incentives for organizations that need more addressing will also
The thing about IPv4 reclamation is that it places the direction for
reclamation on ARIN. Does
the community want ARIN scrounging up a bunch of random /24's scattered
through the IP
space and then handing them out as partial satisfactions to requests? NO.
That just creates
more fragmentation and more incentive for multiple BGP advertisements since
be larger and larger numbers of discontiguous IPv4 blocks into play. This
is a fact that everyone
involved knows about. Because of this it is clear that ARIN's reclamation
efforts will commence
with the largest blocks carrying unsure status, and as time passes and the
largest blocks are
reclaimed, then ARIN will turn to smaller and smaller blocks, putting them
together to make
larger blocks (where possible) This will take ever increasing amounts of
So the upshot is that IPv4 requests post-IPv4 runout will go into a queue,
and as large
blocks are reclaimed, ARIN has large discretion to assign them in a
You might have situations where someone requests a /22, then someone a week
requests a /18, and then a month later a /18 becomes available, and rather
it, ARIN gives the later requestor the /18 and the earlier /22 requestor has
to wait. OF
course, since there are more abandonded /22s out there, the first requestor
get satisfied - but he will have to wait. That forced waiting, and
uncertainty as to whether
you will EVER get an IPv4 request satisfied post-IPv4 runout, is the kick
that is needed to
get businesses going on IPv6.
Selling IPv4 blocks destroys all of this. Now you have a situation where
even people wanting
small fragments of allocations can pay a lot of money to leapfrog over
larger pending allocations,
assuming they find a broker with a small allocation. The broker of course
just cares about selling
his small allocation, and the buyer just wants numbers, and neither give a
damn about the
larger issues of increasing fragmentation of the BGP table - which all of
the rest of us have
to bear the cost of. Brokered sales also make it very difficult to
The fact is that once IPv4 has run out, it is in the best interests of
-everyone- on the Internet to
switch to IPv6 as quickly as possible. As soon as the Internet reaches a
tipping point of IPv6
switchees, then there will be a stampede of IPv4 holders to IPv6 and then
there will be PLENTY
of worthless abandonded IPv4 available for those orgs who believe that the
rest of the world will
continue to dual-stack forever, just for them.
In many ways this debate parallels the "drill drill drill" for oil mentality
of a certain political party in
the US. We all know in the US that oil reserves are shrinking, and we have
a good idea when
they will run out. We have a lot of legacy users of oil who need to be
switched over to natural
gas and coal-and-wind-generated electricity. We have all the research to do
this completed and
we are at the point that everyone is standing around the swimming pool,
waiting for the "other guy"
to jump in first. It is so bad that some people are willing to go to
enormous efforts to try to squeeze
the last possible drops of oil from the ground in a vain effort to stave off
the day that the oil will be
gone - and they will have to jump into the swimming pool of alternative
energy. And some other
people are going to even more enormous efforts to wreck the economy so as to
consumption so that the price will artifically drop on oil for a short time.
It is not a good
situation, and it is the result of trying to stretch a dying resource too
What is needed for the swimming pool is the lifeguard to run around behind
all of the people
standing and just push them the heck into the pool. What is needed for the
IPv6 rollout is
for ARIN and the other RIR's to just run around behind all the networks and
push them into IPv6
once the last of the IPv4 is handed out.
You talk about bizarre ways of economic channeling - that's nothing compared
to what would
happen to the Internet if a strong push is not made on switching over to
IPv6. Bizarre would
be an understatement.
From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
Behalf Of Milton L Mueller
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 8:47 PM
To: Azinger, Marla; ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Is this more desired than a Transfer Policy?
This proposal doesn't really deal with the problem. Yes, some better
reclamation policies need to be instituted, but the real problem is not
"abandoned" resources. It is:1) underutilized resources that the holder has
no incentive to give up, and many strong incentives not to give up; and 2)
shifting addresses from lower-valued uses to higher valued ones on an
But this proposal is a good example of the kind of trouble into which a few
members' irrational marketo-phobia is going to get ARIN. In order to avoid
the so-called horrors of bilateral exchanges of address resources among
willing parties, you propose to create an army of snitches -- most of whom
will be, no doubt, as self-interested and economically motivated as any
address trader would have been. The process of monitoring these claims of
abandonment is going to make a simple market look oh, so simple..
Sooner or later we learn that economic incentives are real and will find a
way to manifest themselves. Institutions either channel them in constructive
directions or they channel them into bizarre ways.
Now will someone explain to me why it is intrinsically evil to benefit from
selling addresses but good to collect a "finders compensation?" Or is this
really a satirical post that has some sly fun with the ideological blinkers
that seem to exist in ARIN?
From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On
Behalf Of Azinger, Marla
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:16 PM
To: ppml at arin.net
Subject: [arin-ppml] Is this more desired than a Transfer Policy? Need input
Hello- This is a second run of the email Jason and I sent out during the
last ARIN meeting. We wanted to send out a possible policy route that ARIN
could do opposed to using any form of an Emergency Transfer Market. We need
to see input/feedback on ppml for this. Specifically if this is an avenue
you would or would not want to see ARIN take in place of a Transfer
Policy/Market. If we don't get feedback on ppml we will dump this idea. If
we do get feedback in a manor that shows interest then Jason and I will
officially submit this policy proposal and then work with the community on
revising any aspects that aren't completely appealing or decisively good for
the community. Thank you Marla Azinger and Jason Schiller
Please be advised that this is a suggested new section to NRPM in addition
to keeping the current section 4.6 Voluntary Partial Returns and Amnesty.
Name: Active Reclamation of abandoned number resources
This policy addresses the following:
1. Find, reclaim and re-use unused number resources.
2. Give incentive to keep unused number resources out of the black
3. Assist ARIN in cleaning up the database.
4. Provide an incentive to self identify and return unused resources.
5. Increase efficient utilization of ARIN number resources.
6. Help ease the transition to IPv6.
7. Help ensure fair re-distribution of resources to those who need
NRPM#: Active Reclamation of abandoned number resources
ARIN will actively investigate and ensure abandoned ARIN number resources
including legacy resources that are under ARIN management are returned to
the ARIN address pool for recirculation. Any one may submit a report of
abandonment for ARIN to investigate. ARIN may investigate abandonment
without a report when ARIN has reason to believe it has been abandoned.
ARIN can use their discretion to determine if someone is abusing this policy
by submitting multiple reports with poor evidence of abandonment. This will
result in a loss of claim to all reports currently in progress by the
perceived abuser ARIN has the right to reject investigation requests if
they deem the reporting entity is abusing the policy.
Addresses that are squatted and efficiently used will be granted amnesty if
the addresses are self reported, back billing is reconciled and any
applicable RSA is signed. Partial returns and amnesty can be granted to
squatted addresses under this policy.
Management of abandoned number resources
-ARIN will keep a Lost Property Office via a direct link from the main ARIN
-ARIN will publicly list all number resources that are reported abandoned on
the Lost Property Office site and the status of the investigation. Stats of
recovered space through the abandoned number resources will be provided
bi-annually at the ARIN Members Meetings.
- ARIN will take measures to identify a chain of custody or successor in
interest to the last known POC. If the successor is determined, the block
will be transferred to the successor under current ARIN policy.
- If the number resources are not valid for transfer to the successor and
the original finder is not eligible to receive the number resources then the
block will be added back into the ARIN address pool for re-use.
-The original "finder" is eligible for receipt of the addresses if they are
currently eligible per ARIN policy to receive more addresses and the
addresses are not transferred to a chain of custody that was discovered
- If an investigation reveals a successor who is unaware of their number
resources, ARIN can decide if there is good faith and sufficient
justification for the successor to keep the resources. Partial returns and
amnesty can be granted to sucessors for blocks revealed in and investigation
under this policy.
-Before ARIN re-uses allegedly abandoned resources ARIN will work with ISP's
to route these resources no less than 90 days in order to validate they are
not in use.
-The original "finder" will receive a "finders" compensation for the listing
when either resolution occurs. *For example a credit could be put towards
their annual fees.
-To report an abandoned block, send a request for investigation via the
Abandoned Block Template.
Examples of Abandoned number resources:
- Unused Legacy (e.g. swamp)
-Business failure and the number resources are not currently
assigned nor in use.
-Bad recordkeeping by an otherwise functional entity.
-Squatted space that is not self reported.
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