[arin-ppml] Creating a market for IPv4 address space in absence of routing table entry market

John Santos JOHN at egh.com
Tue Jun 17 16:37:18 EDT 2008

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 06:16:04PM -0400, Milton L Mueller wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com
> > [mailto:bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com]
> > > > We have very strong reasons to assume that people do want to buy
> > > > addresses. We know less about whether people will sell addresses. I
> > > > agree, it's an uncertain situation.
> > > 
> > > 	"we" is whom in this context?
> > 
> > Everyone I know of involved in this discussion, with the possible
> > exception of you. ;-)
> 	that is a leap of faith - to presume that all participants
> 	on the arin public policy mailing list want to buy addresses.
> 	and since you have not aske me my opinion, your presumption
> 	that i am the sole exception is ... unrealistic.

Sheesh!!  It *would* be a leap of faith if Milton had presumed that,
but he said no such thing.  He said "we" (presumably the consensus
amongst PPML subscribers) think people want to buy addresses.  He
did *not* say we, ourselves, want to buy addresses.  Please *read*
the post before replying.  It's not like Milton was vague.

> > > 	"strong reasons" - which are?  please elaborate the reasons
> > > 		and why they are particularly strong?
> > 
> > Is this a trick question? The strong reasons are the continued fast
> > growth in the ipv4 Internet, the depletion of the v4 free pool and the
> > huge uncertainty regarding the leap to ipv6. 
> 	for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread, the "continued
> 	fast growth in the ipv4 Internet" is doomed. there are only 
> 	4 billion marbles to play with and soon all of them will be 
> 	in play.  We can't make more.  We have two choices;  NAT all 
> 	the way down or IPv6. 

Or the third choice, redistribute the marbles, which is what's
being discussed here.

> 	I think your presuming that -IF- one could buy/sell integers
> 	-AND- Milton happend to "buy" - that anyone would
> 	automatically route it for you.  Regardless of your status
> 	with regard to any prefix in question, "owner" or (imho) steward,
> 	there is ZERO assurance of routablity by a third party.

Finally, an actual on-topic response: You think redistribution wouldn't
work because it would be unlikely that they would get routed.

> > > 	I still have no assurance
> > > 	that my ISP will be willing or able to route packets - but that
> > > 	issue is not something ARIN (or any RIR) can do anything about.
> > 
> > That was precisely my point. If ARIN or any other RIR authorizes address
> > transfers, that act in and of itself neither undermines nor improves
> > routability. 
> 	Ah... perhaps my presumption stated above is not what
> 	you think after all. 
> 	authorizing transfers does not equate to buying/selling 
> 	address space.

I don't think anyone who advocates a market in address space thinks
that implies ownership of address space.  It implies ownership of
the right to use address space (i.e. a license to use that unique
set of integers, in the limited context of the IPv4 Internet.)

> --bill
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Sorry to be so snarky, but there is enough material posted to this
list to try to wade through every day without the additional burden
of careless misrepresentations of what other people said.

John Santos
Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
781-861-0670 ext 539

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