[arin-ppml] Policy Proposal: Dedicated IPv4 blockto facilitateIPv6 deployment

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jessica (Jie Yun) Yu [mailto:jyy at uci.edu] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:21 PM
> To: 'Ted Mittelstaedt'; michael.dillon at bt.com; arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: RE: [arin-ppml] Policy Proposal: Dedicated IPv4 
> blockto facilitateIPv6 deployment
> 
> 
> Ted,
> 
> The fact is that while some special areas in the US may use 
> the Metric system, the main measuring system in the US is the 
> English system (inch-pound). 

Wrong.  As I said, measurements are done in a variety of different
standards depending on the industry.  In the US the machine tool
industry is almost completely metric now.  Most fastners (ie: bolts)
used in all industries except for construction are metric - a few
are metric threads with english heads.

Construction is one of the few holdouts because most construction
is governed by local building codes of which there are thousands in
the US.  Also, because construction is still one of the industries
where there's significant participation by non-professionals (go
into any Home Depot or Lowes to see what I mean)

Transportation regulatory speeds, map distances, and fuel measurements 
(sales and vehicle efficiency) are still english, however it is also
common for the general public to make statements like
"this car with the 2.5 liter engine gets 25 mpg, and this car with
the 4 liter engine gets 30 mpg" basically mixing metric and english
measurement types in the same sentence.  In any case, the US
standard for deviation of an auto speedometer is something like 2-3
mph, the assertion that an auto speedometer is anything like a precision
measuring device is preposterous, that is why arguing in a court that
your car speedo says you were going 55 when the cop's radar gun says
you were going 65 is not a defense against a ticket.

Vehicle manufacture is mostly metric nowadays.  (or soon will be with
GM talking about bankruptcy)

Space exploration is metric now, after NASA lost the million dollar
Mars lander due to the stupidity of mixing metric and non-metric
measurements in the same spacescraft (much like the general public
does with cars) they went on a tear to stop doing that.

Food for retail sale USED to be packaged in standard-sized containers.
With the exception of a few holdouts, such as beer and soda cans and
bottles (12 oz aluminum cans, and 2 liter plastic bottles, another
example of mixed metric/english) today retail food container sizes
are NOT standardized, they are all over the map as food companies
attempt to deceive consumers.  For example a lot
of "1/2 gallon" ice cream containers are now really 56 oz, Country
Crock has come out with a 2lb 13 oz margarine container that appears
identical to a 3 lb container, etc.  These containers no longer 
follow any kind of english or metric standard, are designed purely
for the looks, and marked with whatever minimum amounts the company
thinks they can get away with putting inside, in both english and metric
per the food labeling laws.

I could go on, but for more info see the following:

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/bibliography.html

In short, the statement that there is any such a thing as a "main"
system in the US is ignorant.  In industry, it's majority metric, among
retail consumers, it is a mix.

> If you think otherwise, you must 
> live in a different United States as I do.
> 

I know it's no use attempting to convince someone such as yourself
who obviously has no real experience in the mechanical (or electronic
or most other) industries.  But it's embarassing to our non-US list
subscribers to have a US citizen who should certainly know better be
spouting such silliness.

> By the way, this is sort of off the main topic of this thread 
> intended to discuss so I will stop here.
> 

Of course, your out of your element.  Your also ignoring the real
meat of the response, which is that there will be IPv4 pockets in
an IPv6 universe, with no ill effects, just as there's english
measurement pockets, and Whitworth measurement pockets, in a Metric
world.

Ted

> --Jessica
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Mittelstaedt [mailto:tedm at ipinc.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:00 PM
> To: 'Jessica (Jie Yun) Yu'; michael.dillon at bt.com; arin-ppml at arin.net
> Subject: RE: [arin-ppml] Policy Proposal: Dedicated IPv4 
> blockto facilitateIPv6 deployment
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net
> > [mailto:arin-ppml-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jessica 
> (Jie Yun) Yu
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 7:42 AM
> > To: michael.dillon at bt.com; arin-ppml at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] Policy Proposal: Dedicated IPv4 
> > blockto facilitateIPv6 deployment
> > 
> > 
> > >...but do you seriously think that U.S. network operators
> > will circle
> > >the
> > wagons and go it alone with IPv4 while the rest of >the world
> > goes with IPv6?
> > 
> > Well, it's not unprecedented that US adopts different
> > standard than the rest of the world. According to 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system, the entire world 
> > (except 3 nations) has adopted Metric System for about 40 
> > years while US is still using inch-pound system.
> > 
> 
> In all US industrial markets the metric system is
> in wide use.  If you buy a car, a bicycle, a motorcycle, or any other
> item of any complexity and you want to work on it yourself, your
> going to use metric tools, not English.
> 
> If your definition of the "entire world adopting the metric system"
> means that every single measurement of anything in the world is out
> of the metric system, you are very much mistaken.  Measurements
> are done in a variety of different standards.  In threads 
> alone there's
> about 20 different popular standards, and manufacturers and 
> industries will
> adopt the most unusual ones you can imagine.  For example, in auto
> air conditioning work, when the industry shifted from chlorinated
> R12 the service fittings were all American Standard flare, available
> at any hardware store.  The logical thing would have been to shift to
> Metric ISO flare, wouldn't you think?  But guess what they did shift
> to?  ACME, that's what.  A thread standard that is used for 
> worm drives
> on lathes and bench vises, coupled with a compression flare.  It's
> unique in the AC industry and completely stupid because while the
> intent was to prevent DIYers from connecting their old R12 stuff
> to the new AC systems, you can buy ACME-to-standard flare adapters.
> 
> BSW Pipe thread, (ie: Whitworth) another non-metric standard, is used
> on virtually all water pipes in the UK, and in Australia.  MPH is also
> used on speed signs in the UK and Australia and until recently, in
> India.
> 
> In the US, virtually EVERYTHING made for foreign export is metric.
> 
> The lesson you should draw from this analogy is that in a 
> post-IPv4-runout
> world, there are going to be "pockets" here and there of IPv4.  Most
> obviously, we will likely see IPv4 handoffs from ISP's to residential
> customers, for many, MANY years, long after the core is IPv6, using
> proxies and translators at the ISP.  And why not, because any 
> ISP doing
> that can use private numbers at no cost?  It's analogous to the 
> local gas company is going to handoff your natural gas line to your
> home or business using NPT and English-measured pipe.  But, if the
> gas company is buying LNG from an overseas supplier, it's likely going
> to be measured in metric.
> 
> But the idea that somehow conversion to the metric system hasn't
> happened in the US, or the UK, just because they have their street
> speed limit signs in miles, and their water pipe sizes and threads
> in century-old dinosaur standards that predate metric, is a fantasy.
> 
> Ted
> 
> 
>